Split Thread Skepticism and Vegetarianism

[Cosmic Yak]

split from the definition of skepticism

Posted By: jimbob

I don't think I participated (or even saw) any of the threads mentioned here:

I am not a vegetarian. I am not even weakly opposed to vegetarianism. I am not very interested in discussing vegetarianism. However, when looking at a thread like that, I would have been interested in the arguments presented for and against vegetarianism, not in the number of people for and against. It is also possible to be a vegetarian and criticize some of the arguments for vegetarians or a carnivore and criticize some of arguments for eating meat. Besides, it's a spectrum, isn't it? From veganism to ovo-lacto vegetarianism and even pescatarianism and pollotarianism. I could live with most of those, but I would miss roast pork once in a while.
As it is, I don't know how I would have 'voted' in a thread like that.

There were two issues with what happened then. The first was that I was labelled a hypocrite for being vegetarian, and the whole concept was rejected as such by those who commented.
The second was that I was criticised for being a lecturing vegetarian, when I had been at pains to say the exact opposite. No matter how much I tried to counter this strawman, the forum members involved simply repeated their lies about me.
So, I came away from that episode with the conclusions that this forum was highly critical of the idea of being vegetarian, and some members saw it as an opportunity for repeated dishonesty.

I can see your problem. It sounds reasonable as you present it here, but I have no idea why people would be opposed to flying in general or to you, in particular, flying. There are a lot of reasons why flying in general should be limited and replaced with more environmentally friendly means of transportation, but that is still not an argument against flying as such, but against the environmental costs of the current way of flying. During the worst part of the pandemic (and even now), there is also the aspect of transmission of virus, but that also has more to do with the how of transportation than with flying as such.
The question of compensation sounds like it should have been in trial and errors. I don't see why people would side with the airline, based on what you write here.

No-one ever said how I was supposed to get from Saudi to the UK, if not by flying.
I also use an e-scooter to get to and from work, or taxis when it's too hot for that, so my overall carbon footprint is quite low. (Not eating meat also helps that.) That didn't seem to count for those laying into me.
As for siding with the airline, I don't know either why those posters did that. You can have a look in that thread and see if you can figure it out, if you're interested.

I think the vast majority of people on the forum are in favor of encouraging and utilizing skepticism, so it sounds weird to me that people would have rejected "the very idea of scepticism." However, I don't think a definition will contribute much to encouraging and/or utilizing skepticism. I don't think a more concise and elaborate defintion will change how people think and act, like, 'Oh, so that's what I have been doing wrong the whole time! Now that I know the definition, I'll mend my ways.'

Agreed, but that wasn't why I thought we should have the term defined. It was more about attracting new members, and letting people know what we're about here.
Or supposed to be about, at least.

I didn't like the idea of calling skeptics brights. It's as nonsensical as Mensans calling themselves intelligent, but I don't know if this has anything to do with the discussion you are referring to.

I too strongly dislike that term. It's akin to 'pure bloods'- very arrogant.

Maybe a definition of what skepticism isn't would be more expedient, but I still wouldn't expect it to make much of a difference.

The balance of posts says nothing about what people who don't participate in any given discussion think. I have been 'piled on' a couple of times to the extent that my opponents were convinced that I was the only one who thought what I did. But when they made that conclusion explicit, they turned out to be wrong.
You don't have access to information about what "the forum as a whole" is for or against. There is no such thing as the forum as a whole.
You can always make a poll, but it will only give you the answers from people who participate in it. Not everybody does.

Yes, a lot of people have been saying that. As I explained above, all I can go on is what's said. I may need to change my thinking on this, though.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'd like a link to the discussion about vegetarianism, actually. I can't believe that there would be anything other than a tiny minority of people who were very strongly and angrily against vegetarianism.

Kindly quote the posts prior to my #13 that were positive.

Posts #2 and #3 engaged with the topic positively. Post #4 was a genuine suggestion. Post #5, the first post by @theprestige, was a general observation, and not presented in any way negatively. Post #6 was a gentle joke about spelling, and Post #7 was a direct reply to it and didn't engage with the topic in either a positive or a negative manner. Post #8 was a question in reply to a question, which you answered in Post #9. In Post #10, you characterise theprestige's post as "just bitching at each other", which is the first negative statement I've seen in the thread. Post #11 is a reasonable and measured response to that, to which you replied mostly civilly. Post #13 is where you say that all of the above is "scornful and dismissive".

To your eyes, maybe. Not to mine.

Maybe the problem is not with my eyes.

 

[ahhell]

I'd like a link to the discussion about vegetarianism, actually. I can't believe that there would be anything other than a tiny minority of people who were very strongly and angrily against vegetarianism.

Based on my experience on the internet, I would be at least slightly surprised if there weren't a few rabid anti-vegetarian types. Maybe enough to make seem like there were more than not. I might have been one of those folks once.

 

[arthwollipot]

Based on my experience on the internet, I would be at least slightly surprised if there weren't a few rabid anti-vegetarian types. Maybe enough to make seem like there were more than not. I might have been one of those folks once.

But not now, right?

 

[ahhell]

But not now, right?

Nah, there was probably a time when I might have been a knee Jerk "vegetarians suck". The most I'll do now is quibble with the notion that its necessarily healthier than a diet with a moderate amount of meat. Otherwise, vegetarians are probably mostly right. For environmental reasons and ethical reasons anyway.

ETA: If that question was about the forum generally, I wouldn't be surprised if there were enough folks that were of the vegetarians suck bent to make it unpleasant to talk about being a vegetarian.

 

[SteveAitch]

I get the feeling that 'newly converted' vegetarians are a bit like their equivalent Christians - irritatingly keen to proselytize. I was actually asked by a new vegetarian, "if you eat meat, why aren't you in favour of cannibalism?"

Once they mature into their new beliefs, they get more bearable and, almost, laid back. In my experience.

Except, possibly, vegans...

 

[The Don]

I get the feeling that 'newly converted' vegetarians are a bit like their equivalent Christians - irritatingly keen to proselytize. I was actually asked by a new vegetarian, "if you eat meat, why aren't you in favour of cannibalism?"

Once they mature into their new beliefs, they get more bearable and, almost, laid back. In my experience.

Except, possibly, vegans...

Ah, the oh-so-predictable dig against vegans.

My experience of vegans (and this is likely skewed by the fact that I'm married to one and have several as friends) is that they're compassionate people who want to limit animal cruelty. YMMV

I went to the Vegan Camp Out last year and even though I'm not vegan all I received was encouragement for being vegetarian and advice on the benefits of veganism. Contrast that with the constant stick I get from omnivores, even those who are friends and acquaintances.

They seem to think that unsolicited advice about protein, B12, other nutrients or the cruelty of veganism (without meat eaters all those farm animals wouldn't be alive) is fine but woe betide the person who tries to talk to them about dietary choices and the impact they have on animal welfare and the planet. I, like most of the vegetarians and vegans I know, keep quiet unless someone asks a question and shows interest.

 

[SteveAitch]

Ah, the oh-so-predictable dig against vegans.

Based on my experience, so get off your high horse.

My experience of vegans (and this is likely skewed by the fact that I'm married to one and have several as friends) is that they're compassionate people who want to limit animal cruelty. YMMV

I went to the Vegan Camp Out last year and even though I'm not vegan all I received was encouragement for being vegetarian and advice on the benefits of veganism. Contrast that with the constant stick I get from omnivores, even those who are friends and acquaintances.

Your experience is different from mine.

They seem to think that unsolicited advice about protein, B12, other nutrients or the cruelty of veganism (without meat eaters all those farm animals wouldn't be alive) is fine but woe betide the person who tries to talk to them about dietary choices and the impact they have on animal welfare and the planet.

As someone who tends to a B12/Folic acid defficiency...

I, like most of the vegetarians and vegans I know, keep quiet unless someone asks a question and shows interest.

Well, I hope you don't get all defensive/superior about like those I've dealt with. Apart from one, who I get on well with.

 

[ahhell]

Generic Vegan/vegetarian comment.

There is a bit of toupee fallacy thing there. Which I have been guilty of to be sure. Nobody notices the vegan that just doesn't eat animal products and moves on. We mostly notice the vegans that don't eat animal products and makes it known. We especially notice the vegan that makes it known in the most obnoxious ways. Which I imagine we have all met. The guy that lectures others about their choices. Kind of like atheists. Nobody remembers the atheists that just say, I don't believe in god when asked. They remember the guy that sued the government on account of in god we trust on coins and tells anyone they meet that they are suckers for believing.

I'm a non-vegan/vegetarian and I admit that they are more ethical than I am. I only argue with them when I think they are making untrue claims about health, which some do. We are all a bit prone to exaggerating the benefits of our life choices, including meat eaters.

ETA: regarding the OP, assume cognitive bias not lies.

ETA: Also, please quit telling how this or that fake meat is just as tasty as real meat. I'd rather eat paneer than fake ham or Seitan than fake beef.

 

[Chanakya]

People might want to discuss their actual reasons for going vegetarian or vegan. Theirs as well as of those others that they know intimately enough to be sure of their actual motives. Health? Environment? Ethics? All three? Something else?

I'm a vegetarian, and have been for like ...around ten or twelve years I think with a bit of cheating thrown in, and around, I don't know, seven or eight years or so without feeling the need to cheat.

And my reasons are primarily ethical. In fact, scratch that, my reasons are ethical, period.

The environment part is cool. Health benefits are good to have to, except I'm not sure it's necessarily more beneficial. But the ethical part ---- the whole idea of exploiting and actually eating another sentient being, just to please my palate and to bring some incremental benefit to me in terms of health, I cannot stomach that. Speaking for myself alone, and leaving others to do as they like, no problem at all. (My gf is vegetarian as well, but that's just happenstance. We got together when she was already a vegetarian, and I was a vegetarian mostly but cheated sometimes.)

----------

Yeah, there's one potential issue here. If ever it is discovered that plants possess sentience, and can actually feel pain, well then that's me between and rock and a hard place. Because while I'm willing to compromise on health a bit if it comes to that, but I'm not prepared to starve away to death right away for the sake of my principles.

But for now I'm good. No brains and no nervous system means no sentience, so far as we know, and no pain as we understand it. So all good, for now at any rate.

----------

My problem is I see the ethical point of veganism, but in practical terms have not ended up committing to it yet. There's exploitation aplenty in dairy-product industry as well, but well, at least it isn't actually killing and eating them. Or so I try to console myself, while knowing that the right thing to do is to actually go vegan. Maybe I will, going forward. Maybe.

----------

Again, it's a personal choice, and zero judgment on anyone else's choice. Like I was saying the other day in the trolley problem thread, I won't pull the switch to kill the fat man myself, but won't sit on judgment on someone else that's found a different choice more appealing.

 

[Chanakya]

Generic Vegan/vegetarian comment.

There is a bit of toupee fallacy thing there. Which I have been guilty of to be sure. Nobody notices the vegan that just doesn't eat animal products and moves on. We mostly notice the vegans that don't eat animal products and makes it known. We especially notice the vegan that makes it known in the most obnoxious ways. Which I imagine we have all met. The guy that lectures others about their choices. Kind of like atheists. Nobody remembers the atheists that just say, I don't believe in god when asked. They remember the guy that sued the government on account of in god we trust on coins and tells anyone they meet that they are suckers for believing.

I'm a non-vegan/vegetarian and I admit that they are more ethical than I am. I only argue with them when I think they are making untrue claims about health, which some do. We are all a bit prone to exaggerating the benefits of our life choices.

Haha, true.

Most people don't even know I'm vegetarian. They often don't even when we go out to eat together, because it is trendy enough to sometimes not eat meat, without that necessarily implying you never do. (But if it ever happens to come up, I don't hide it either.)

As far as obnoxious, I have to say, I don't remember having myself directly interacted with a single "militant" vegetarian. I have seen more than one militant and very much obnoxious vegan, though.


eta: "Toupee fallacy", good one. Never heard of it before, and nor did I look it up, but it's easy to guess what it might mean. Cool term.

 

[ahhell]

How do you know someone is a Harvard Grad/into Crossfit/ a Vegan? They tell you. Not entirely true in any case but true enough to be annoying.

 

[Olmstead]

It's sort of like them gayz that keep going on about how gay they are.

 

[theprestige]

I'm a vegetarian, but nobody knows because I take care to never practice it in public. Also, out of respect for my namesake, I never practice it in private, either. That way I never slip up.

 

[novaphile]

It's sort of like them gayz that keep going on about how gay they are.

That stand on boxes on street corners shouting about how everyone else should be gay, and meet once a week to stand around shouting about being gay and singing show tunes, and wear gay jewellery and gay clothing with gay slogans on it, and go around banging on peoples' doors to lecture them about being gay...

... yeah, it's gays who do that.



(I hope you don't mind me expanding your joke to make it more obvious Olmstead.)

 

[The Great Zaganza]

My experience is that people underestimate how easy it is to stay vegetarian once you've done it for a while: meat really loses its appeal.
Because there is no shared experience here, understanding is hard.

Note: it might be easy to go vegan once you've been vegetarian for a while, but there, too, is a gap in lived experience.
I'm not 100% vegetarian, and certainly not vegan. But the prospect is no longer as farfetched as it once was.

 

[Orphia Nay]

I was vegetarian for 12 years at one point, but got a bit malnourished due to being a fussy eater into the bargain. I survived mostly on cheese and tomato sandwiches.

I was a vegan for 2 or 3 years, and ate all the healthy stuff you're supposed to, plus some of the processed fake meats, but in the end on a visit to the seaside I gave in to my craving for fish and chips.

These days my dietitian says I'm doing really well and following a Mediterranean diet. I still don't eat red meats such as beef or lamb, though.

Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Criticising someone for their food choices is a weird thing to do.

 

[arthwollipot]

Criticising someone for their food choices is a weird thing to do.

Indeed. There are some weird food choices out there but vegetarianism isn't one of them. There are as many reasons for someone being vegetarian as there are vegetarians. Same goes for veganism. I know someone who is vegan as part of their mental health management plan - specifically, an eating disorder. Perfectly valid.

If you want to be a vegetarian, be a vegetarian. More power to you. It isn't going to save the planet, but a properly managed vegetarian or vegan diet is perfectly healthy and a valid lifestyle choice. And if you think it isn't - if you think it's okay to persecute or make fun of people for their dietary choices, then you are the bad person.

 

[Chanakya]

I was vegetarian for 12 years at one point, but got a bit malnourished due to being a fussy eater into the bargain. I survived mostly on cheese and tomato sandwiches.

I was a vegan for 2 or 3 years, and ate all the healthy stuff you're supposed to, plus some of the processed fake meats, but in the end on a visit to the seaside I gave in to my craving for fish and chips.

These days my dietitian says I'm doing really well and following a Mediterranean diet. I still don't eat red meats such as beef or lamb, though.

Everyone has their own likes and dislikes. Criticising someone for their food choices is a weird thing to do.

Given you'd gone veg for a decade plus, then, from that perspective, I thought I'd share my philosophy, my technique if you will. Mindful eating. That's all. Feel free to eat whatever whenever, but when it comes to meat, just take a moment to introspect, to reflect, these are my reasons for not eating this, and these are my reasons for eating this. Do a quick accounting, then eat whatever, guilt free. Even if just the mmmmmmm-factor trumps everything else, cool, no guilt.

That's how I did it, and do it. It works for me.

(Again, not asking everyone to do this. Just sharing my own ...technique, with you, given you'd cared enough one time to do this for a decade.)

(I realize this makes me not quite a card carrying vegetarian, because I leave myself open to straying any time I want to, for whatever reason, as long as it is a considered decision. But functionally it's ...happened to be the same thing, so potatoes potahtoes I guess. ...For me personally, the thought of eating a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ baby animal, for instance, that ...trumps the temptation, every time.)

...I know, I know. I could do the same for dairy. I just haven't, so far. ...Just thinking this through clearly now, it brings me an inch closer to going vegan. Don't know if that'll make a difference functionally, though.


Eta: Yeah, depends on your options, as well, I guess. If going vegetarian translates into subsisting on sandwiches, then that's ...neither easy nor healthy, obviously. ...On the other hand, one's options are often --- not always, but often --- not as static as one might imagine.


Etaa: Heh, not trying to convert you! Have fun with your Mediterranean diet if it works for you.

 

[arthwollipot]

I could never be vegan. I like cheese too much.