Split Thread Skepticism and Vegetarianism

[Darat]

This is meant to be a thread about "Skepticism and Vegetarianism". It is not meant to be about each other or slights you have received or forum management. Going to try a clean out and will reopen it after that. When it is reopened make sure you keep it on topic.


ETA: Clean up done - please keep this warning to keep to the topic in mind when posting to this thread.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[The Don]

Re Vegan/Vegetarian...



From here. www.veganpeace.com/veganism/vegan.htm

There does also seem to be a distinction between merely adopting a plant based diet and becoming vegan.

I cannot be vegan, regardless of my diet, because I own a couple of pairs of leather shoes which I'm not going to dispose of because they're not going to wear out any time soon and a number of merino wool base layers that also have many years of wear left in them.

 

[Hercules56]

There does also seem to be a distinction between merely adopting a plant based diet and becoming vegan.

I cannot be vegan, regardless of my diet, because I own a couple of pairs of leather shoes which I'm not going to dispose of because they're not going to wear out any time soon and a number of merino wool base layers that also have many years of wear left in them.

Yep, you clearly are not a vegan. Vegans oppose the use or consumption of any products created from animals.

 

[SteveAitch]

I will admit to eating a lot more veggie based food these day (and fruit), but still meat/fish for protein and B12 (I tend to very low B12 levels, which could cause problems re onset of dementia - yeah, I know, "who could tell?"), due to last set of annual blood tests suggesting that if I don't make changes, I could end up pre-diabetic next time round.

Unfortunately, also on a low salt/low oxalates diet for my blood sodium/dodgy kidneys, so have to go easy on the nuts/lentils/etc.

The only problem I have with a high veg diet is the effect on my internal plumbing - more, and more unpleasant, flatulence - which I hope is temporary!

So, in my case, it's for medical reasons, and if meat was made illegal I could probably get by OK. If you choose to be low meat/vegetarian/vegan, that's up to you.

One thing I'm not sure about is people brought up to be veggie for religious reasons, ie having it 'forced' upon them. But that may be another discussion entirely.

 

[The Don]

If you have very low B12 levels, have you considered a B12 supplement so as to make absolutely sure that you're getting sufficient ?

 

[SteveAitch]

If you have very low B12 levels, have you considered a B12 supplement so as to make absolutely sure that you're getting sufficient ?

They are not very low, just close to the bottom end of the OK range. But the OK range is so wide that being near the bottom is quite a lot lower than the top value. The doctor suggested beef/salmon/etc a better way of getting B12. So I'll go with his recommendation, if you don't mind.

 

[Chanakya]

I'd be quite happy to eliminate red meat/factory eggs from my diet, as my main ethical stance on the issues around vegetarianism/veganism is that of being against the mistreatment of livestock. Similarly, I favor predators which kill their prey quickly, and despise those who eat their prey alive (eg polar bears). But the insect world, OMG: the Carboniferous was hell on Earth.

Anyway, main question: How do vegetarians "beef up" without consuming meat? What's best? I'd like to reduce my red meat consumption but not go all skinny as a result.

Heaps of stuff you can get protein from, while a vegetarian. Quinoa, oats, nuts particularly almonds, beans, chickpeas, dairy. Just off the top of my head, there’s lots more. Getting enough protein is no big deal for a regular guy with regular needs. (As opposed to someone who has particular needs or allergies, or maybe someone into very heavy training, I mean to say.)

Also, eating fruit is good for you. Not sure about the protein content of it, and nor do I know/remember which specific fruit is good for which specific vitamins --- a quick online check will probably provide that info, if you're interested --- but you can get most/all vitamins if you eat lots of fruit, and mix them up not just focus on just the one or two. My own consumption of fruit has gone up many times over in the last decade or so.

But yeah, if you’re into heavy gymming, for instance, as I used to be (but no longer am), then eggs help. I used to eat them, both because they help with the nutrition, and also because I love eggs. …And yeah, if one wants to lawyer this, then one might argue that eggs are more like dairy than like meat, in the sense that definitely they come from exploitation of animals, but on the other hand you aren’t actually butchering and eating them. But that’s …I don’t know, not quite …not 100% straight, that argument, which is oftentimes used IRL? Me, if I ever find myself really wanting to eat eggs again, then I just will, just the same as any other thing, because I want to, without tyring to defend that decision in those terms.

…Now without a shadow of a doubt going vegetarian without impacting your health adversely takes some thought. Someone that’s putting some thought into their diet and lifestyle generally, will obviously find it easier to eat right if they’re not vegetarian, obviously, simply because this is a subset of the omnivore’s diet. But it’s doable, if you want to, and depending on your circumstances not too much additional trouble even.

 

[Chanakya]

There does also seem to be a distinction between merely adopting a plant based diet and becoming vegan.

I cannot be vegan, regardless of my diet, because I own a couple of pairs of leather shoes which I'm not going to dispose of because they're not going to wear out any time soon and a number of merino wool base layers that also have many years of wear left in them.

Yep, right, veganism is way more involved than just diet. It actually takes the ethical argument to its logical conclusion, which I respect. But it's a lot to ask, imo, the whole vegan deal. Great if you can do it, sure, and all respect for those that do. But ... heh, some people maybe overreach, is what I think, and commit to more than they are actually happy with, comfortable with: and these are the vegans that go on to become sanctimonious pains in the butt, I guess, because that's how they compensate?

 

[Axxman300]

I love vegetarians. More meat for me.

That said, I eat less meat now than 10 years ago. I've tripled the amount of vegetables and fruit in my diet. I've become lactose intolerant in my old age, so no more cheese or dairy. My doctor would prefer I was 100% plant-based, but I don't feel good when I go for a few days without meat. And I bought a pair of books he recommended about plant-based diets, so I'm up on the homework. I've lost 20 pound since my mother's death in March due to healthier food being in the house, and all the snack crap eliminated. There is something to be said for a healthy diet, and if you want to cut meat out - cool.

 

[The Don]

Yep, right, veganism is way more involved than just diet. It actually takes the ethical argument to its logical conclusion, which I respect. But it's a lot to ask, imo, the whole vegan deal. Great if you can do it, sure, and all respect for those that do. But ... heh, some people maybe overreach, is what I think, and commit to more than they are actually happy with, comfortable with: and these are the vegans that go on to become sanctimonious pains in the butt, I guess, because that's how they compensate?

I think "those vegans" would be pains in the butt regardless. Kinda like the people who feel it necessary to spam vegan recipe posts on social media with helpful advice about eating meat.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yep, right, veganism is way more involved than just diet. It actually takes the ethical argument to its logical conclusion, which I respect...

Except that you really can't rule out all animal suffering in your behaviour unless you choose not to partake in modern society at all. Vegans draw a line, but exactly where they draw the line is up to them.

I love vegetarians. More meat for me.

If I'm at a conference or something and there's meat options and vegetarian options at the buffet, I will actively avoid the vegetarian options. After all, I can eat their food but they can't eat mine. Every serving I take from the vege table is a serving that a vegetarian can't have.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Heaps of stuff you can get protein from, while a vegetarian. Quinoa, oats, nuts particularly almonds, beans, chickpeas, dairy. ...

Thanks for all of that. I now have two business associates in India, one a Gurkha (quite a well-read, erudite and fascinating fellow, I might add). In either case, I've had to change my discourse a tad, avoiding meat-diet references so as not to inadvertently offend. (Both are practicing Hindus.) They offer many recommendations in line with yours. I'd love to become a better kitchen person, but I think I may need to 'pray' our ventures go forward so that I might have an excuse to finally visit India, a huge missing piece in my global travels, where I might by force of local habit mend my animal ways. One of them allows for eggs as sole exception, not sure of the other.

(Not looking forward to the vaccines, OMG. Not an anti-vaxxer, but that long list of requirements would take weeks to administer and, for one or two I suppose, recover from.)

 

[Olmstead]

If I'm at a conference or something and there's meat options and vegetarian options at the buffet, I will actively avoid the vegetarian options. After all, I can eat their food but they can't eat mine. Every serving I take from the vege table is a serving that a vegetarian can't have.

But if you take the vegetarian options, they will be considered in demand, resulting in more vegetarian options at the next conference. The invisible hand of the ... umm, conference buffet.

 

[Hercules56]

I have the utmost respect for both vegetarians and vegans. Its their choice and I support them in all they do.

What sucks is when Vegans get all judgy and even tyrannical about their food choices as it relates to others.

I was in a hiking group and the hike leader decided one day to give special preferences to fellow vegans. Because he said he loves his vegan brothers. And he said he was trying to encourage people to follow his ways.

It did not go down very well.

 

[The Don]

I have the utmost respect for both vegetarians and vegans. Its their choice and I support them in all they do.

What sucks is when Vegans get all judgy and even tyrannical about their food choices as it relates to others.

I was in a hiking group and the hike leader decided one day to give special preferences to fellow vegans. Because he said he loves his vegan brothers. And he said he was trying to encourage people to follow his ways.

It did not go down very well.

You're right, it is annoying when someone gets all preachy, judgemental and even confrontational.

I never cease to be amazed at the number of omnivores, especially those with a high consumption of meat, who find it necessary to criticise my dietary choices. After a while the "hur, hur, hur vegetarian food is great - as a side for a steak" schitck gets old quickly.

 

[Helen]

It always seems a bit like the "I'm fine with homosexuality, but do they really have to shove it in our faces all he time" when someonein passing mentions a partner of the same sex - omnivores (not to mention the often very cultish carnivores) are fine with vegans/vegetarians as long as they don't ever mention it, let alone talk about any perceived benefits. I hear a lot of ridicule from some omnivores, but not even close to as much from the veg+.

And for the record, I do eat meat.

 

[ahhell]

It always seems a bit like the "I'm fine with homosexuality, but do they really have to shove it in our faces all he time" when someonein passing mentions a partner of the same sex - omnivores (not to mention the often very cultish carnivores) are fine with vegans/vegetarians as long as they don't ever mention it, let alone talk about any perceived benefits.
I hear a lot of ridicule from some omnivores, but not even close to as much from the veg+.
And for the record, I do eat meat.

If I read that correctly you are saying you hear more ridicule from Veg+ than omnivores? I ask, on account of that seeming at odds with the majority of your post.

That being said. The gays are fine if they wouldn't talk about it comparison is, off putting. Veg being a more clear choice and all.

That being said, the carnivores are.....well silly. As far as I can tell there's basically no justification for the....true carnivore enthusiasts. Those that seem to think an all-meat diet is the healthiest. Those guys and the raw food folks are both basically cultists. I will absolutely verbally assault both groups. Even the folks that insist meat is necessary is fairly silly, sure a bit easier to live on a diet with meat but some b12 and beans and you're fine otherwise.

Like I said, I only make fun of the vegetarians when they start making claims beyond its better for the environment and more ethical.

 

[Hercules56]

You're right, it is annoying when someone gets all preachy, judgemental and even confrontational.

I never cease to be amazed at the number of omnivores, especially those with a high consumption of meat, who find it necessary to criticise my dietary choices. After a while the "hur, hur, hur vegetarian food is great - as a side for a steak" schitck gets old quickly.

Indeed, frankly its none of my business if you choose to not eat meat.

 

[Helen]

aahell; lots of ridicule from omnis, not as much from vegs+, sorry if I was unclear! I often am, I find myself completely unable to parse what I'm saying, and thinking, on a regular basis!

And in my experience, many followers of various restrictive diets behave as if they're born again christians and need to immediately save the rest of the wold. Perhaps veg+ has become mainstream enough here (ie in Sweden) that their missionaries have lost their zeal, since I very rarely bump into any veg+ fundamentalists nowadays.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

What's up, doc? Something against carrots? Hmmm?