Split Thread Skepticism and Vegetarianism

[novaphile]

I could never be vegan. I like cheese too much.

I still struggle with the definitions, I think because vegitarian meant 'no animal products' when I was growing up.

i.e. What vegan means today.

Hence my crack that I'm an ovo-pisco-buffo-porco-pollo vegetarian.

(I don't eat dairy).

NB. I've met many ovo-lacto-pollo vegitarians over the years.

i.e. eggs, milk, cheese, yoghurt and chicken are all OK.

Similarly vegetarians who eat fish and seafood.

I just eat what I can.



Sucks to be me.

 

[Orphia Nay]

Sucks to be me

Ah, sympathies, just to complicate things further, I too have to eat lactose-free due to an allergy.

When I was vegetarian and surviving on cheese and tomato sandwiches, I was still young and hadn't realised the cause of my digestive problems. No wonder I was so malnourished.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

I'd be quite happy to eliminate red meat/factory eggs from my diet, as my main ethical stance on the issues around vegetarianism/veganism is that of being against the mistreatment of livestock. Similarly, I favor predators which kill their prey quickly, and despise those who eat their prey alive (eg polar bears). But the insect world, OMG: the Carboniferous was hell on Earth.

Anyway, main question: How do vegetarians "beef up" without consuming meat? What's best? I'd like to reduce my red meat consumption but not go all skinny as a result.

 

[SteveAitch]

I'd be quite happy to eliminate red meat/factory eggs from my diet, as my main ethical stance on the issues around vegetarianism/veganism is that of being against the mistreatment of livestock. Similarly, I favor predators which kill their prey quickly, and despise those who eat their prey alive (eg polar bears). But the insect world, OMG: the Carboniferous was hell on Earth.

Anyway, main question: How do vegetarians "beef up" without consuming meat? What's best? I'd like to reduce my red meat consumption but not go all skinny as a result.

IIRC Roman gladiators tended to be vegetarian and ate a lot of lentils for protein.

Mind you, that's probably from an episode of QI, however...

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Protein deficiency is one of the great myths of vegetarianism. Vegetarians are generally not deficient in protein. The fact is that most people eat far too much protein.
Many athletes eschew red meat altogether, and stick to a diet of either white meat, or go completely veggie. Carl Lewis is one example.
Good sources of plant-based protein include pulses, nuts, seeds and soy-based products like tofu.

 

[arthwollipot]

Similarly vegetarians who eat fish and seafood.

Which is known as pescatarianism.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

IIRC Roman gladiators tended to be vegetarian and ate a lot of lentils for protein.

Mind you, that's probably from an episode of QI, however...

I eat beans every day at midday as my main dish, albeit with a tad of sausage added (eg fabada, with less meat than in the picture). Wife also makes a wonderful cold bean dish with tomato, onions and tuna in the summer, yummy.

But chicken? I just seem to cook it so poorly that I stick to hamburgers or a two-egg tortilla in the evening. I also eat loads of olives as my main source of vegetable fat etc., also easy on those who don't like to cook. Oats, Greek yogurt and raisins for snacks or reduced meals when less hungry.

I love lentils, but it is my wife who makes them in a way I can eat them. Since she's still in the big city and not yet retired, I only eat "fancy" when she's visiting me, or me her. Looks like I'm stuck until a far more capable person, i.e. woman, is around.

 

[Hercules56]

Protein deficiency is one of the great myths of vegetarianism. Vegetarians are generally not deficient in protein. The fact is that most people eat far too much protein.
Many athletes eschew red meat altogether, and stick to a diet of either white meat, or go completely veggie. Carl Lewis is one example.
Good sources of plant-based protein include pulses, nuts, seeds and soy-based products like tofu.

Vegans require B-12 supplements.

 

[The Don]

I'd be quite happy to eliminate red meat/factory eggs from my diet, as my main ethical stance on the issues around vegetarianism/veganism is that of being against the mistreatment of livestock. Similarly, I favor predators which kill their prey quickly, and despise those who eat their prey alive (eg polar bears). But the insect world, OMG: the Carboniferous was hell on Earth.

Anyway, main question: How do vegetarians "beef up" without consuming meat? What's best? I'd like to reduce my red meat consumption but not go all skinny as a result.

If you simply mean how do you gain weight, you beef up by eating more calories than you expend. For most people it's distressingly easy. I'd recommend a ton of cake, lots of fried food and plenty of unnecessary snacking between meals. Mrs Don hasn't lost weight since both giving up alcohol and switching to a vegan diet.

If you mean how do you get swole and gain a ton of muscle mass then it's just as difficult as when you're eating an omnivorous diet - hours and hours in the gym while ensuring that your calorie consumption is not excessive. There are a number of high profile, successful, vegan bodybuilders out there. I expect a lot of them use supplements, just like their omnivorous colleagues, but in their case vegan supplements.

I tend towards the endurance athlete end of the scale (on average I cycle around 200km a week, much more in the summer) as well as running, walking and other cardio activities. As a consequence relatively skinny (1.88m, 70kg). I've been vegetarian for 2 1/2 years and this has also coincided with a sharp uptick in my cardio exercise (retirement). My weight hasn't really changed overall but it does fluctuate less. I put the lack of weight loss down to judicious consumption of baked goods.

 

[The Don]

Vegans require B-12 supplements.

Yep, defensive omnivores obsess about one micronutrient whilst not necessarily worrying too much about their own diets. B12 scores just after Protein but well before "but you're exploiting bees to pollinate your plants" in Vegan Bingo.

There are vegan sources of B12 but you're absolutely right, B12 is tough to come by in a vegan diet. For omnivores it comes from meat and eggs mostly due to the animals' consumption of fecal matter.

I've taken an inexpensive broad spectrum vitamin and mineral supplement for a couple of decades. Since I adopted a vegetarian diet I have continued to take it.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

... If you mean how do you get swole and gain a ton of muscle mass then it's just as difficult as when you're eating an omnivorous diet - hours and hours in the gym while ensuring that your calorie consumption is not excessive. There are a number of high profile, successful, vegan bodybuilders out there. I expect a lot of them use supplements, just like their omnivorous colleagues, but in their case vegan supplements.

I tend towards the endurance athlete end of the scale (on average I cycle around 200km a week, much more in the summer) as well as running, walking and other cardio activities. As a consequence relatively skinny (1.88m, 70kg). I've been vegetarian for 2 1/2 years and this has also coincided with a sharp uptick in my cardio exercise (retirement). My weight hasn't really changed overall but it does fluctuate less. I put the lack of weight loss down to judicious consumption of baked goods.

Thanks for that.

I am more on the lean side, though struggling to lose the last 10kg to get to 75kg. My goal is strength, but not bulk, and a posture/profile that is amenable to a military/aerospace audience, as I am shopping our materials science stuff to EU investors and meet with folks who like to feel they are among their own. Like unto but lesser than your biking, my "endurance training" is walking a neighbors' tiny little Yorkshire, who runs me ragged up and down the hills for an hour or more each day, usually more. No kidding, my thighs and calves are much stronger now, my overall balance and stability, too. I am always shocked at how that little fellow can go, go, and go.

As an aside and while on the topic, I am now advised by a man with decades of experience as a Gurkha and in the French Legion. He quotes Hemingway and is surprisingly erudite, at least compared to my (biased?) expectations. One of my partners is from India, too, meaning that lovely subcontinent is up for a visit, hopefully in January, the multiple vaccines for which give me another motive to be in shape.

 

[The Don]

Thanks for that.

I am more on the lean side, though struggling to lose the last 10kg to get to 75kg. My goal is strength, but not bulk, and a posture/profile that is amenable to a military/aerospace audience, as I am shopping our materials science stuff to EU investors and meet with folks who like to feel they are among their own. Like unto but lesser than your biking, my "endurance training" is walking a neighbors' tiny little Yorkshire, who runs me ragged up and down the hills for an hour or more each day, usually more. No kidding, my thighs and calves are much stronger now, my overall balance and stability, too. I am always shocked at how that little fellow can go, go, and go.

As an aside and while on the topic, I am now advised by a man with decades of experience as a Gurkha and in the French Legion. He quotes Hemingway and is surprisingly erudite, at least compared to my (biased?) expectations. One of my partners is from India, too, meaning that lovely subcontinent is up for a visit, hopefully in January, the multiple vaccines for which give me another motive to be in shape.

One of my concerns was that a vegetarian (at home almost exclusively vegan apart from occasional cheese) diet would be deficient in protein and that as a result I would lose muscle. That hasn't proved to be the case.

I do make a point of eating plenty of legumes and when offered a choice of plant based milk or yoghurt would choose pea or soy based rather than, say, oat to maximise protein but my leg and glute muscles are significantly larger thanks to all that cycling and I've got better definition on my upper body (and a sixpack at nearly 60) thanks to a body fat percentage around 10%.

A guide I read is that you need at least 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight, possibly 2g if you're training. I get a fair amount but probably half to two thirds of the lower amount and I work my body pretty hard so that guidance is on the high side IMO.

For context, I'm by no means an elite cyclist and I'm definitely a climber rather than a sprinter or rouleur but my time up the local big climb, the Tumble is 19 minutes and change. The pros did it in 13-14 minutes when it featured in the Tour of Britain, I'm in the top 6% of all people who have ridden it and in the top 20 (of 2.200) in my age group so vegetarian-based feebleness isn't an issue.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

One of my concerns was that a vegetarian (at home almost exclusively vegan apart from occasional cheese) diet would be deficient in protein and that as a result I would lose muscle. That hasn't proved to be the case.

I do make a point of eating plenty of legumes and when offered a choice of plant based milk or yoghurt would choose pea or soy based rather than, say, oat to maximise protein but my leg and glute muscles are significantly larger thanks to all that cycling and I've got better definition on my upper body (and a sixpack at nearly 60) thanks to a body fat percentage around 10%.

A guide I read is that you need at least 1g of protein per kg of bodyweight, possibly 2g if you're training. I get a fair amount but probably half to two thirds of the lower amount and I work my body pretty hard so that guidance is on the high side IMO.

For context, I'm by no means an elite cyclist and I'm definitely a climber rather than a sprinter or rouleur but my time up the local big climb, the Tumble is 19 minutes and change. The pros did it in 13-14 minutes when it featured in the Tour of Britain, I'm in the top 6% of all people who have ridden it and in the top 20 (of 2.200) in my age group so vegetarian-based feebleness isn't an issue.

Good to know. I'm more than a decade ahead, but managing.

My interest in fitness is non-sports related. (NSFW)

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Vegans require B-12 supplements.

Firstly The Don has addressed this. It is funny how meat-eaters always utilise the same arguments. This is a repeat of the conversations I had on this forum a few years ago, when exactly the same points were raised by defensive meat-eaters. Mote in the eye, basically. It's going to be screaming carrots next, I guess.
Next, note that I was talking about vegetarianism, not veganism. Are you aware that these are different things?

 

[Hercules56]

Firstly The Don has addressed this. It is funny how meat-eaters always utilise the same arguments. This is a repeat of the conversations I had on this forum a few years ago, when exactly the same points were raised by defensive meat-eaters. Mote in the eye, basically. It's going to be screaming carrots next, I guess.
Next, note that I was talking about vegetarianism, not veganism. Are you aware that these are different things?

Are they, really????

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Are they, really????

Yes. Do you really not know this? Why do you think they have different names?

 

[arthwollipot]

Next, note that I was talking about vegetarianism, not veganism. Are you aware that these are different things?

There can be overlap in the discussion, IMO.

 

[The Don]

There can be overlap in the discussion, IMO.

You're right there can.

As a vegetarian, I am much less concerned with animal welfare than a vegan. For my own selfish reasons (a fondness for cheese and for baked goods when out on a bike ride) I pretend not to notice the horrors of the egg and the dairy industries. I try to justify it because I don't eat that much, but it's simply my selfishness.

Likewise, my carbon footprint is significantly higher as a result as is the risk of various health issues like heart disease and bowel cancer.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

You're right there can.

As a vegetarian, I am much less concerned with animal welfare than a vegan. For my own selfish reasons (a fondness for cheese and for baked goods when out on a bike ride) I pretend not to notice the horrors of the egg and the dairy industries. I try to justify it because I don't eat that much, but it's simply my selfishness.

Likewise, my carbon footprint is significantly higher as a result as is the risk of various health issues like heart disease and bowel cancer.

This again is one of the issues that we got into the last time I was involved in these discussions. It is a question of where you want to draw the line. There is always going to be a certain amount of suffering and negative environmental consequences, whatever one's choices are. You make the decisions that you are comfortable with, and which will allow you to stay healthy.
The last time round, I was labelled a hypocrite for making this choice. For certain other members, it was an all-or-nothing choice, of omnivore vs vegan/fruitarian. There was an unsavoury comparison with child rape, just to give you something of the flavour of that particular conversation.
As for carbon footprints, given that meat-eating, especially consumption of beef, is one of the biggest contributors to global warming and deforestation, I wouldn't beat yourself up over it too much.

 

[SteveAitch]

Re Vegan/Vegetarian...

The word "vegan" was invented by Donald Watson, the founder of the U.K. Vegan Society. He was born in 1910 and died at the age of 95 in his home in Northern England.

In 1944 he got together with a group of friends to find a word that would describe their diets. He suggested "vegan", using the first three and last two letters of "vegetarian". It was the "beginning and end of vegetarian". Together they founded the Vegan Society. He wrote their first newsletter, which came out in November of 1944 and was called "The Vegan News".

From here. www.veganpeace.com/veganism/vegan.htm