General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[OCaptain]

I have, and the burden is on you to prove the Holocaust happened the way we are told it happened. You haven't done that yet. Nobody has.

Let me know when you do, though.

The historical consensus (joined in by the Germans, too) stands perfectly well on its own. Since you are proposing an alternative history, the onus is upon you to fortify it with evidence.

Can you? I'm not so sure.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I have, and the burden is on you to prove the Holocaust happened the way we are told it happened. You haven't done that yet. Nobody has.

Let me know when you do, though.

You are assuming, of course, that members here know the way you were told the Holocaust happened, so there is not burden on me to do a thing about it. I, for one, do not know what you've been told. You could start making sense by explaining what you have been told and then discussing that. I can't read your mind, although I can see your struggles with chronology and geography.

 

[A'isha]

Excellent post, ANTPogo, I learned more than I will retain! Nicely done and very informative.

Thank you!

 

[nomuse]

That depends. What was the Holocaust? Is its definition dependent on the trumped-up six million number? Is its definition dependent on the number of people killed incidentally through starvation, exposure, and disease? How can anyone be sure about the numbers anyway?

That entire war was just a huge orgy of chaos and propaganda, so I don't think it's quite so clear what really happened.

Yes, is it?

If only one million people were systematically murdered, would you stop being all concern troll and tone troll and trying to make everyone (but you) be a better scholar?

If out of those million people, only half were Jewish, and the rest a mix of gypsies, the disabled, prisoners of war and political prisoners, would you still care so very, very much about making sure everyone got the numbers exactly right?

If instead of gas chambers, they just nailed shut the gates and waited for everyone to starve to death, would you still be ever so cautious to make sure no disproportionate blame was given for the incident?

I'd rather like to know.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

The historical consensus (joined in by the Germans, too) stands perfectly well on its own.

Logical fallacy. Argumentum ad populum. Appeal to popularity. "It's true because everybody believes it's true!".

There is no such thing as a "historical consensus" when it comes to the Holocaust. It's been hotly debated ever since 1945.

Sorry, try again.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Logical fallacy. Argumentum ad populum. Appeal to popularity. "It's true because everybody believes it's true!".

No, my talkative holocaust denier, the conventional historical view on the holocaust is based on evidence. This "evidence" word seems to confuse you and Clayton. I guess you two have never encountered the concept before. Clayton's excuse, as he informed us, was that he was still reading comic books at 12 but gave up, (too hard I suspect).....and your excuse for never providing evidence is?

 

[SpringHallConvert]

No, my talkative holocaust denier, the conventional historical view on the holocaust is based on evidence.

Not credible evidence. Maybe planted or manufactured evidence, but that's a different story.

This "evidence" word seems to confuse you and Clayton.

Not really, we're probably just B.S. resistant. Your alleged "evidence" has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

.....and your excuse for never providing evidence is?

It's not my job to disprove your "Final Solution" conspiracy theory, it's your job to prove it, and you are failing.

 

[The Dark Lord]

The only way that the Holocaust could be proven to the satisfaction of the troll SHC is if a time machine was taken back 70 years ago so he could see for himself. Actually, probably not even then. Too bad for him that the world doesn't require his insane burden of proof.

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Too bad for him that the world doesn't require his insane burden of proof.

No, too bad for us all.

 

[The Dark Lord]

No, too bad for us all.

Nope. Only too bad for the for lunatics that are trying to rehabilitate the image of the Nazis. Like you.

Get over it, Hitler lost.

 

[BaaBaa]

How do we even know anything about this "Hitler" fella, anyway!?

 

[threadworm]

Yeah, but those Germans probably looked across the pond after the attack at Pearl, saw what we were doing to the innocent Japanese-American civilians, and probably felt justified in what they were doing. I mean, if the Germans had any doubts about what they were doing, our concentration camps here in America definitely removed them.

You make a lot of claims without providing any evidence. You don't know, you weren't there.

 

[timhau]

How do we even know anything about this "Hitler" fella, anyway!?

The Government told us about him.

 

[The Dark Lord]

How do we even know anything about this "Hitler" fella, anyway!?

Good point. Maybe the Jews just maybe up this Hitler person and fabricated the evidence for his existence. Can you prove this didn't happen, SHC?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Not credible evidence. Maybe planted or manufactured evidence, but that's a different story.

You are funny but very ignorant. Zabecki, from the Polish resistance gave evidence in court in conjunction with the documents he kept. Are you claiming he was a "plant".....by whom? You are very confused.

Not really, we're probably just B.S. resistant. Your alleged "evidence" has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

Considering you haven't looked at the evidence I supplied, your comment reaffirms your inability to grasp evidence. I suggest you and Clayton Moore exchange your entire knowledge about the 39-45 war using private messages to keep up. That would only be about two paragraphs of text from both of you.

It's not my job to disprove your "Final Solution" conspiracy theory, it's your job to prove it, and you are failing.

It is not my job to reproduce the couple hundred conventional history books I have read on this matter on the internet as this is not a teaching position and you are not a student. This is a skeptic forum for people to point out problems they have with conventional history, that has sadly attracted a handful of trolls and holocaust deniers. Your job is to entertain us in this capacity, sort of like the court jester of yesteryear. No one here expects either you or Clayton to provide evidence but rather "ring bells, wave your stick and do tumbles" for our entertainment.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Not credible evidence. Maybe planted or manufactured evidence, but that's a different story.



Not really, we're probably just B.S. resistant. Your alleged "evidence" has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.



It's not my job to disprove your "Final Solution" conspiracy theory, it's your job to prove it, and you are failing.

Holes, please.

It is your job, if you really want the question of the occurrence to become hotly debated, to prove a conspiracy, manufactured evidence, and holes like Swiss cheese. Otherwise, the historical consensus sticks as it has for sixty years. If you don't want to convince people there are holes in the narrative and that the evidence for it is no good and thereby turn the matter into a topic of debate, that's your choice. But if you keep making vacuous, grand statements as you are doing, nothing changes.

 

[000063]

Why don't you just provide a citation for your information like I used to do when I wrote term papers in college? He asked for specific sources, not a print-out the search results for "Holocaust" on the Barnes and Noble website.

We did provide specific sources, from the exact time period that Moore requested after moving his goalpost. He claimed they were "off-topic" and refused to discuss them. ST whined about having to look them up without giving any indication he had tried to get to them online. You're doing basically the same thing.

Learn. About. Burden. Of. Proof.

"Rules are for other people." seems to be SHC's SOP.

You seem confused. The majority of camps were in Poland, not Germany.

The range of Allied bombers. Can you please detail one allied bomber that could reach Treblinka before December 1942 when the majority of executions took place? You seem to have no knowledge of basic military logistics, just like Clayton Moore. (PS you need to look at maps and airfields to determine distance and then explain how, if a bomber could reach Treblinka, its service rail line etc, how it could locate these targets in rural Poland.

I know you won't back up your words. Neither does Clayton. I can't tell you two apart sometimes.

And then there's the teeny little selection of why the Allies would be bombing the supply trains for concentration camps, which would be, let's say, not a priority target. Looked at in a cold, logical light, the more Germans assigned to such camps, and the more people in them, the more they have to draw away resources from the front.

 

[000063]

You make a lot of claims without providing any credible evidence.

Well, that's hypocritical, seeing as you have provided no evidence whatsoever.

 

[000063]

No, too bad for us all.

We can all tell you're ignoring #504, you know.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Hunh?

Why did you misstate what is claimed about mass gassings? In theory, I could disagree with Hilberg on whether there were 2.6 million Jewish victims - and still correct your lunacy about what has been claimed.

That is your "lunacy":

The "claim" that you will find if you look in, for example, Hilberg - and your nearly insane questioning about an obvious point, obvious to anyone who has even basic familiarity with the Holocaust, is half amusing and half annoying - is that over 5 million Jews were exterminated by the National Socialists and some of their allies - approximately 3 million of these in camps, with about 2.6 million of these victims killed by gassing; approximately 1.4 million in organized shooting actions; and about 0.7 million in ghettos by starvation, aggravated disease, shootings, etc. (Compared to these numbers, a very small number of POWs and Poles were put to death by the National Socialists in gas chambers.)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8193322&postcount=189

In different archives and, sadly for you, cited and evaluated in many secondary works.

Secondary works...

Well, then answer for yourself: why do you repeatedly distort what other people write?

I do not distort what you have already twisted.

Not to be mean, but your sentence means nothing - and I cannot fathom what you are trying to say about what I wrote.

Again, slowly: the Jaeger report is a primary document, written by an Einsatzkommando commander about his operations and accomplishments in Lithuania during 1941; Sakowicz's diary is a primary document, a journal kept by a Polish journalist who witnessed some of the work of the SS in Lithuania, at Ponar, and kept a record of what he witnessed.

I know of Greek (many from Salonika), Czech, Polish, French, Dutch, and Hungarian SK members. Members of the SK were nearly all Jewish, and all were under the command of the camp SS.

You seem exceptionally lazy. I have already linked to a book in which you can find this information, Gideon Greif's We Wept Without Tears.

You do that. Maybe you will find this report about the time you figure out who Himmler was.

Let's verify what you claimed:

Well, yes, but. If you will notice, in this thread I have cited many primary sources showing mass extermination of Jews. However, you introduced the silliness that the NAzis are accused of murdering millions of political prisoners by gas -- "What I indeed wrote was the accusation which is made against the Third Reich" -- so my asking for your evidence of this accusation is more than pertinent.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8156934&postcount=26

That what you had presented as "primary source" while I have been asking for primary evidence (something your highly intelligent mind seem to confuse):

Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. Holocaust Denial and Operation Reinhard. A Critique of the Falsehoods of Mattogno, Graf and Kues.

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com.br/​

No, not primary evidence for a mass extermination plan. Just a blog of holocaust believers angry with the overwhelming lack of scientific evidence to support their faith.

Heinrich Himmler: A Life
By Peter Longerich

http://books.google.com.br/books?id...onepage&q=longerich "heinrich himmler&f=false​

We Wept Without Tears: Testimonies Of The Jewish Sonderkommando From Auschwitz
Gidʻon Graif

http://books.google.com.br/books?id...c=y#v=onepage&q=we wept without tears&f=false​

Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers
Filip Müller, Helmut Freitag, Susanne Flatauer

http://books.google.com.br/books/about/Eyewitness_Auschwitz.html?id=ENAPlezFF_AC&redir_esc=y

http://archive.org/details/eyewitnessauschw00ml​

No, not primary evidence for a mass extermination plan. Books based on testimonies are interpretation of primary and secondary evidence.

...and I am not eager to buy books which financially support your holocaust faith.

The report is, as we shall see, an accounting of a German mass murder campaign in summer and fall 1941 in which over 136,000 Jews were executed with the aim of making the region free of Jews.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7973269&postcount=9600​

No, not primary evidence for a mass extermination plan. It is a post where you typed 4946 words about a report, but you miserable failed to provide one single link to anyone verify the report.

Sonderkommandos were work units of Nazi death camp prisoners, composed almost entirely of Jews, who were forced, on threat of their own deaths, to aid with the disposal of gas chamber victims during The Holocaust. The death-camp Sonderkommando, who were always inmates, should not be confused with the SS-Sonderkommandos which were ad hoc units formed from various SS offices between 1938 through 1945.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderkommando​

No, not primary evidence for a mass extermination plan. It is a internet page which anyone can change the information at will, with no regards to scientific accuracy.

Let's verify one of your absurd claims:

Yes, in any group of people, many could be forced to do things they find immoral and repugnant on pain of death. The sickos are those who force people to do things like that and those who apologize for the killers.

(...) They were reviled in Israel by former prisoners of Auschwitz and other camps who'd managed to survive. In the interviews they talk about how they approached and processed what they were forced to do. Furthermore, according to Primo Levi there were cases of victims chosen for SK duty refusing (guess what happened to them, at least according to Levi?); very importantly, the SK underground at Birkenau organized a resistance effort and, after fruitlessly trying to hook up with the underground among the general population, in fall 1944 revolted on their own.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=202147&page=37

Now look at this picture (Sonderkommando in Auschwitz-Birkenau, August 1944) from your own sources, which you claim as "primary source":



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Auschwitz_Resistance_280_cropped.jpg

Where are the German guards forcing the Sonderkommandos to cremated the bodies (which was supposedly gassed)?

That show that your absurd claim is out of context, not based on the mere observation of the evidence available.

Perhaps you are a expert on "holocaust deniers", but certainly you are not on evidence analysis and data cross reference.

Do you know any picture which clearly shows Sonderkommandos being forced to perform the absurd job of kill and cremate they own religious/ethnic group?