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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Speaking with my professional hat on, ANTPogo's description of SS and German civil service bureaucratic procedures and correspondence formatting was absolutely spot on.

By the time I encountered denial 'seriously', I'd read through thousands of Nazi-era files from all branches of the state, and have always found the attempts at document criticism to be among the most laughable features of the blithering idiocy that is denial. Maybe not quite up there with the reinterpretation of the German language, but definitely close.

It may help to note that Alvarez is merely parroting/reproducing Pierre Marais' original arguments, so nobody involved is either a native speaker or has any proven competence in document interpretation. It's therefore unsurprising that Bob has screwed up so spectacularly.
 
Well, someone has to step in and take over Saggy's grand global Jewish conspiracy which controls the media, academia, and everything else position since Saggy himself hasn't been around to do so.

As we're all no doubt missing Saggs (not), I feel it is my duty to draw attention to his 'conversion story' which was recently posted on CODOH forum:

I was anti-Jewish long before I questioned the holohoax. It probably started when I read, long ago, Chomsky's 'The Fateful Triangle' about the Israel/Palestine problem. Then I was an engineer in the aerospace industry faithfully working on weapons, actually delivery systems, that will destroy civilization, while my counterparts in Russia were doing the same thing, and when every cultural exchange was greeted in the US by Jews protesting against Russia's treatment of Jews. Then, once I was traveling and saw an exhibit about Anne Frank, with all the photos of her house and the tales of her suffering, while of course not a word about the suffering of Palestinian children. The chutzpah to me was astounding. Then, to seal the deal I read, again long ago, Paul Findley's 'They Dare to Speak Out', about US politicians that had been retired from the US congress by AIPAC for opposing Israel's interests, the list included some familiar names, like Paul McCloskey, Charles Percy, William Fullbright, as well as Findley. Then, there was the Lieberman VP nomination, which stunned me. I read Shahak's 'Three Thousand Years of Jewish History' and I was aghast.

Also, in the late 90s I had by chance been in Lublin? and visited Majdanek. I remember then even then I had some questions about the 'gas chambers' and wanted to see one. I did not know that Majdanek was one of the two camps where actual hoax gas chambers exist. I do remember that even as a kid I did register some cognitive dissonance when I saw the photos of the dead prisoners, because I realized that there emaciated condition was not consistent with death by gassing. But, I did not think about this any further. In any case, I visited Majdanek on a Sunday and it did not appear to me that there was anything resembling a gas chamber there. I was told, then or later, that the hoax gas chamber was closed because it was Sunday.


The Lieberman campaign, and the internet, prompted quite a bit of interest in the Jews. I chanced on a post in alt.politics I believe where someone claimed that the plaque at the entrance to Auschwitz had been changed from stating that 4 million died there to reading that 1.5 million had died there. That post was followed by the usual (I now realize) insulting tripe from the Zionists. I realized that this was a simple matter of fact, had the sign been changed or not, and that I could discover if it was true or not. So, after a day or so I suppose I had found pictures of both signs. This is what piqued my curiosity. I did not think there was a ghost of a chance that the holohoax was not real, but I decided to investigate. I did investigate for a few months, reading and 'debating' on the internet. I was uncertain, and I realized that my mind did not like uncertainty. And I realized that one side or the other was systematically lying. Cole's vid was pivotal for me.

Now, unlike Mark Weber, I think the holohoax is the Jews' Achilles heel, if they have one. The hoax is preposterous and blatant, this is where a tear in the imaginary reality that the 'establishment' has created for us is most easily visible.

This may go some way to answering that oft-posed question, 'why do you hate Jews, Saggy?'
 
Speaking with my professional hat on, ANTPogo's description of SS and German civil service bureaucratic procedures and correspondence formatting was absolutely spot on.

Thank you. :blush:

It may help to note that Alvarez is merely parroting/reproducing Pierre Marais' original arguments, so nobody involved is either a native speaker or has any proven competence in document interpretation. It's therefore unsurprising that Bob has screwed up so spectacularly.

Color me shocked.
 
saggy said:
Then, once I was traveling and saw an exhibit about Anne Frank, with all the photos of her house and the tales of her suffering, while of course not a word about the suffering of Palestinian children. The chutzpah to me was astounding.

I have no intent of getting involved in this one -- the scholarship and the patience displayed by the proper historians here is far too impressive (makes us Apollo Program Reality Supporters look like pikers by comparison).

But this quote was just too much to ignore.

So an exhibit on a single Jewish family didn't include similarly extensive documentation about the suffering that would occur to children in another part of the world, as part of the actions of a state that didn't even exist in her time?

i suppose he would ask that every drive in support of cancer research should also spend equal time talking about traffic fatalities. I suppose the historical exhibits at the Tower of London should include equal space to the accomplishments of the Mayan empire.

Oh, and I don't know which particular exhibit he speaks of -- probably the Frank House (which I've not seen, but had described by friends) -- but every telling of the story of Anne Frank I have ever seen has included somewhere some equivalent of the phrase "in the memory of all children, wherever they are."
 
Following on from the Apollo Hoax poll, I have started a poll on Holocaust denial/revisionism. I'm curious as to how many will vote overall, since there is no especial occasion as with the Moon Hoax poll refuting a false claim by a Moon Hoaxer, but it will be interesting nonetheless.
 
The Holocaust happened. Period.

That depends. What was the Holocaust? Is its definition dependent on the trumped-up six million number? Is its definition dependent on the number of people killed incidentally through starvation, exposure, and disease? How can anyone be sure about the numbers anyway?

That entire war was just a huge orgy of chaos and propaganda, so I don't think it's quite so clear what really happened.
 
That depends. What was the Holocaust? Is its definition dependent on the trumped-up six million number?

Can you prove it was "trumped up"?

Is its definition dependent on the number of people killed incidentally through starvation, exposure, and disease?

Yes, of course. If you kidnap someone and your treatment of them results in their death, that's called murder.

How can anyone be sure about the numbers anyway?

Why don't you go back about four pages and start reading.

That entire war was just a huge orgy of chaos and propaganda, so I don't think it's quite so clear what really happened.

Rather.
 
Oh, there are masses of online sources where you can look freely into statistics, details, documents, testimonies and more.

Now please READ this post before fisking it. Read ALL of it to the end. And the next post.

I would suggest you start with Yad Vashem and digest every single article/document/source that is available on their site. The Holocaust Resource Center has numerous documents, articles and other items
http://www1.yadvashem.org/yv/en/holocaust/resource_center/index.asp

The index for Righteous among Nations, for example, includes the following

Total Sources (by media type):
Artifact Collection 28
Diaries and Letters 1
Documents 1
Lexicon Entries 64
Photographs 45
Research 8
Testimonies 7
Works of Art 1

Total Sources 155

This category will provide masses of information about how some few Jews survived, how they avoided detection, and by implication how others were caught.

Another category is 'the Local Population', divided into several sections. One section deals with 'perpetrators and murderers'

The same information is available on Wikipedia in condensed form; careful surfing and following of links will arrive at the same results.

And there are also independent websites discussing the same issues. One archived site is called 'Saving Jews' and deals with Poland.

The thing you'll have to get over pretty rapidly is looking for a single source since you are dealing with events that took place on the territory of 25 contemporary nation-states. It has been obvious since the 1940s that events unfolded differently depending on the territory in question, because of differences in culture, politics, economics, social structure, wartime conditions, and the degree of ideological fervour of the occupying Nazis or their local pro-Nazi collaborators, as well as the background level of antisemitism.

I gave some examples from France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Poland up-thread. Obviously, each of these countries has its own encyclopedia entries, its own websites dedicated to the issues involved, and its own scholarly literature.

For example, the basic facts about the Holocaust in the Netherlands are summarised perfectly accurately in Wikipedia's entry on the history of the Jews in the Netherlands. The entry gives some perfectly decent online web pages as sources, which in turn refer to other sources, which in turn refer to primary sources. That's just how the world is with any subject in history.

Or you can continue googling, and will come across other sites, with the caveat that a lot of stuff isn't going to show up in an English keyword search, because duh, the sources will be in Dutch.

If you ask nicely, our Dutch members here - there are several participating in the discussion -will direct you to various sites, sources and materials about the Holocaust in the Netherlands. The Dutch research institute NIOD has scanned large amounts of documents from Westerbork which document the deportations; there are demographic studies, studies showing variations in the regions, and one can also read the standard work on the Holocaust in the Netherlands by Jacob Presser online, in Dutch.

Alternatively, you can simply order Bob Moore, Victims and Survivors, and get a really good summary of all the issues.

Or, you can order Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of European Jews, in any edition other than the student edition (which is overly condensed), and read his chapter on the Netherlands, and also read the chapters on other countries, since Hilberg gives very good summaries of the bureaucratic procedures involved.

By this stage, you should have realised that the Nuremberg records, in addition to the Eichmann trial records, are online, and since these contain a very great many answers to your questions, they can be read, too.

You really have two choices. One, you can reconstruct the massive research effort of others yourself with free materials, or two, you can order a few books from a library or bookshop, and benefit from the fact that you are asking questions which have pretty much already been answered. The freebie route will take a little longer.

Either route requires careful study and the use of multiple sources.

Why don't you just provide a citation for your information like I used to do when I wrote term papers in college? He asked for specific sources, not a print-out the search results for "Holocaust" on the Barnes and Noble website.
 
Can you prove it was "trumped up"?

No, and you can't prove it wasn't.

Yes, of course. If you kidnap someone and your treatment of them results in their death, that's called murder.

What if I kidnap someone with no intent to kill them and then you block me in and prevent me from delivering food and medicine to them, which results in their death?

That would make you partially responsible for their death.

Why don't you go back about four pages and start reading.

That doesn't answer my question.
 
What if I kidnap someone with no intent to kill them and then you block me in and prevent me from delivering food and medicine to them, which results in their death?

That's a somewhat curious turn of events, as the kidnapper is likely to remain with his victim. Also, if you didn't provide food and medicine before kidnapping the victim, you're responsible for their deterioration.

What if you kidnap an octogenarian, force him into a vehicle lacking all amenities, don't provide him with food or water or medical assistance, and keep him there for a grueling three-day journey?
 
That's a somewhat curious turn of events, as the kidnapper is likely to remain with his victim. Also, if you didn't provide food and medicine before kidnapping the victim, you're responsible for their deterioration.

What if you kidnap an octogenarian, force him into a vehicle lacking all amenities, don't provide him with food or water or medical assistance, and keep him there for a grueling three-day journey?

What if the reason I can't provide him with food, water, and medical assistance is because you are bombing the area around the vehicle 24/7, making resupply impossible?

That would make you a sort of accessory, I think.
 
What if the reason I can't provide him with food, water, and medical assistance is because you are bombing the area around the vehicle 24/7, making resupply impossible?

That would make you a sort of accessory, I think.

Alright, since you're so keen on evidence, give us one example of a German shipment of food to the concentration camps being prevented from reaching its goal by Allied bombardment.
 
What if the reason I can't provide him with food, water, and medical assistance is because you are bombing the area around the vehicle 24/7, making resupply impossible?

Except that's not the reason you're not providing him with those things, since you're still able to provide them to yourself despite the bombing. And you continue to kidnap more people and hold them hostage.
 
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Alright, since you're so keen on evidence, give us one example of a German shipment of food to the concentration camps being prevented from reaching its goal by Allied bombardment.

Give me some evidence that shows that the German rail lines and roads weren't being bombed and strafed at all hours of the day.
 
Except that's not the reason you're not providing him with those things, since you're still able to provide them to yourself despite the bombing.

No. Millions of Germans were malnourished by the end of war and not receiving proper medical attention.

And you continue to kidnap more people and hold them hostage.

Well, the United States kidnapped the Japanese-American citizens and held them hostage too, so maybe Germany was just following our lead.
 
No. Millions of Germans were malnourished by the end of war and not receiving proper medical attention.

Not the ones guarding and staffing the camps.

Well, the United States kidnapped the Japanese-American citizens and held them hostage too, so maybe Germany was just following our lead.

No, the first German KL was established long before the IJN attacked Pearl Harbor. Dachau, for instance, was established only two months after Hitler came to power in January 1933.
 
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