Well, possibly less.
Bombing of civilian targets in WWII (split from Gen. Holocaust denial discussion)
- Thread starter EtienneSC
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Well, possibly less.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Sorry Hans, I meant Mondial.
I must have just picked off the wrong name when I scrolled down below the "Reply to Thread" box.
(I wish this forum would allow quote insertion from there, like later versions of vBulletin does)
Nonsense.
To put things in perspective the nazis were rounding up civilians and shooting them en masse in the East (millions killed this way in 41/42). They were torturing civilians in gestapo offices, interring/executing undesirables (race/sexuality/political/religious) and generally being massive ******* human rights abusers in all areas they occupied and from before the war began in Germany. The Japanese had already committed terrible war crimes in China, the Nanking massacre was in 1937. The idea either had lofty ideas is pure revisionist claptrap.
This is hard to decipher. Language like 'use of the Holocaust' is so alien to me - and your useage is bizarre on top of this. But you are fundamentally wrong I think. Human rights are not derived at the expense of community, far from it. But I suspect you do not even know what human rights really are.
What a crock!
The nazi's terror bombed cities without compunction. They did actually pretty much invent terror bombing of course, Guernica was bombed by the luftwaffe in 1937.
The nazi's were unashamed of their disregard for human rights, to try and now draw some equivalency between them and the allies is absurd!
Hans
Philosopher
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One could make a case that the Imperial German Zeppelin raids were the first air terror raids however yes the Germans had no problems pounding civilians until the pounded civilians became their own.
I don't think the Japanese complained about Allied bombing raids on their cities during WWII* but then they had been bombing Chinese ones for a decade.
*anyone know the answer to that question?
Good point about the ww1 Zeppelin raids being the first terror bombings. Presumably Guernica was the first time they were actually able to 'wipe out' a town, I dunno much about the Zeppelin raids but they must have been a more psychological weapon than anything else?
There is a legitimate conversation to be had about allied civilian bombing and its proportionality - especially in Japan imo. But that conversation is difficult to have in the context of Nazi/Axis apologetics. For instance McNamara has some interesting things to say about LeMay and the firebombing of Japanese cities (McNamara worked for LeMay in ww2).
But what is clear is that Hitler and Japan had to be stopped, their ideology and actions were dangerous to the world. Did the Allies do some things wrong? Yes. Did the Allies commit warcrimes? In some instances yes, imo. But those pale into insignificance compared to the unbridled acts of evil committed by the Nazi and Japanese war machines.
There is no allied equivalent of Nanking, or Aushwitz, or the Gestapo, or Unit 731, for the simple reason that the Allies were not straight up evil like the Nazi's or the Japanese fascists. Anyone trying to claim some false equivalency (looking at you Mondial and EtienneSC) is literally trying to excuse the inexcusable, to whitewash what most of the civilised world considers the very definition of evil. I wonder why they do that?
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
THIS!
the Allies did not
► round up over six million people of a religion and systematically exterminate them.
► take reprisals for the actions of Maquis/Partizanin/Andartes on the people of nearby villages by either rounding up all the males and executing them by firing squad, or by killing everyone in the village and razing the village to the ground
The Nazis were ruthless, evil bastards that had to be stopped whatever the cost, and if that meant bombing Germans cities and civilians in order impair their ability to make war, then so be it. This action was fully justified given the extent of Nazi brutality. Trying to justify any actions of the Nazis, particularly the bombing of British cities by claiming "....well, the Allies did it too" is nothing more than a load of revisionist horse-cock!
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catsmate
No longer the 1
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Rubbish. You are in denial about events such as the bombing of Chongqing. a deliberate and authorised terror bombing campaign against civilians which killed more than ten thousand civilians. Not to forget the bombing of Nanking in the run-up to the Rape of Nanking, the terror bombings of Shanghai and Guangzhou, the use of chemical and biological weapons, the atrocities against the Hui and all those other actions.
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
Also, Germany first deployed incendiaries against civilian targets in 1940. They could hardly complain that the allies replied in kind two years later.
Typical holier than thou hypocrite. The largest ethnic cleansing in European history was not against Jews but against Germans. This occurred 1944-48
when Stalin and the Soviet communists expelled over 10 million Germans from eastern Europe with the full support of Churchill/Attlee and Roosevelt/Truman leading to large loss of life. This happened to all Germans not just supporters of the national socialist party -
www.revisionist.net/final-solution.html
www.revisionist.net/east-prussia.html
www.hellstormdocumentary.com
Even before the war Stalin and the Soviet communists starved millions of Ukrainians to death in the holodomor. Churchill/Attlee and Roosevelt/Truman knew all about it and couldn't care less -
www.thenewamerican.com/culture/history/item/4656-holodomor-the-secret-holocaust-in-ukraine/
If Churchill had his way he would have dropped poison gas on German cities -
http://codoh.com/library/document/2143/
As if the Lindemann Plan wasn't bad enough -
http://whale.to/b/lindemann_h.html
Winston Churchill fits the Nuremberg tribunal definition of a war criminal -
www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09/24/churchill-was-a-mass-murderer-and-worshipped-mammon/
http://codoh.com/library/document/2143/
As if the Lindemann Plan wasn't bad enough -
http://whale.to/b/lindemann_h.html
Winston Churchill fits the Nuremberg tribunal definition of a war criminal -
www.veteranstoday.com/2015/09/24/churchill-was-a-mass-murderer-and-worshipped-mammon/
All spam, no substance.
Mondial is comparing apples and oranges, naturally. First of, his heroes murdered Jews, and did not simply ethnically cleanse them. That's not even talking about the war in the Soviet Union, where the policy was explicitly intended to lead to "millions" starving to death. As immoral as the expulsion of Germans was, it was nothing compared to Mondial's heroes' crimes.
By the way, we know that Germans were expelled from Poland, Czechoslovakia and other places mostly because the actual people involved - the Germans themselves- talked about it. The deniers insist that "only" the same thing happened to Jews. Can Mondial prove that this was the case?
www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11528338&postcount=14
I've described the actual lenient policies of the victors towards Germany in this thread. They are the opposite of what Mondial insists, and completely rule out any "hoaxing". Mondial is certainly welcome to discuss them, but he probably won't, given his track record.
I've described the actual lenient policies of the victors towards Germany in this thread. They are the opposite of what Mondial insists, and completely rule out any "hoaxing". Mondial is certainly welcome to discuss them, but he probably won't, given his track record.
smartcooky
Penultimate Amazing
Revisionist BS from a Nazi apologist. No surprise there!
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ddt
Mafia Penguin
No mention yet of the bombing of Wieluń, the first terror bombardment of WW2, European Theater, on 1 Sept 1939
Dash80
Rave on, Not Fade Away
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Somehow I don't think Stalin would have cared if he had support from the Allies or not.
See, he was a murderous bastard too. Difference is... nobody here is denying he was.
What should they have done?
Again, nobody here is denying Stalin was an evil bastard. Nobody here is denying he was responsible for millions of deaths.
You are confusing the result of desastrous nazi policies with their cause. Expulsion of Germans did not raise mass murders by the nazis but were the retaliation of nazi war crimes.
And because they considered this was not enough the nazis decided to kill by their own several million more Ukrainians...
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
codoh, whale and VT all in a single post. Epic spammage of crank sites.
Lindemann was not in any way jewish. Disagree? Take it up with your hero David Irving.
In time of war, all manner of possible tactics are considered. Some are used, some are not. Some are successful, some are not. I fail to see the problem.
He also spammed a link from "Hellstorm", i.e. a propaganda movie that was already addressed on this very forum. Mondial is clearly just here to spam and is not interested in having a discussion.
You don't know what you are talking about. 1937 and Guernica was the Spanish civil war not WW2. You can't even stick to the thread topic.
Britain started bombing German cities and towns in May 1940 after Churchill became prime minister. This before there were Luftwaffe raids on British cities.
http://whale.to/b/kollerstrom.html
Of course you completely ignore the fact that Churchill refused Hitler's offer to stop the bombing of civilians if he would do the same as evidenced in J M Spaight's Bombing Vindicated published in 1944 by the British government -
www.inconvenienthistory.com/archive/2015/volume_7/number_1/bombing_vindicated.php