Why church is so dangerous !!!

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

Humans have gone to the Moon, dug the Panama Canal, built the Great Wall of China, the Pyramids, split the atom, unlocked DNA, taken to the sky and performed many feats that were thought impossibe not that long ago.

Faith in the human spirit. Faith in the human mind and a rational view of the world. That's the faith we need.

You know, if I didn't know better, I would swear I posted this.
I just read my first thread, and boy, I really do need to get out more.

 

[RandFan]

You know, if I didn't know better, I would swear I posted this.
I just read my first thread, and boy, I really do need to get out more.

I was shocked to see you in a different thread.

Welcome to the world.

 

[lightcreatedlife@hom]

I was shocked to see you in a different thread.

Welcome to the world.

You know, there is such a thing as "tunnel vision." I really feel like I spent 6 months in the house.

Religion has shown that it can be dangerous, but it is not so much now. My mother talk about having to dress up on sundays, and I remember following a widespread code of not cursing in front of a church when I was young.

 

[Davidjayjordan]

I see, it's my fault that your Lord has not revealed himself to me, because I have not made him reveal himself to me? Well then can you please tell me how to make him reveal himself to me? Oh, and since you are no different than I am, you can actually only describe how you made your Lord reveal himself to you. That will be enough.

Unfortunately, you seem to shimmy around all real questions, so I can only assume that I will have to continue on not having gotten your Lord to reveal himself to me, nor getting you to describe to me how to do so.

So who is at fault here, you or your Lord?

Oh, wait, you already explained it, it's my fault.

Well, since it's my fault, why won't you help me with my problem?

Oh, right, you are trying to help, by ignoring me and not answering my questions. It's embarrassing that I need this asplained to me so many times.

I always try to answer sincere questions, Strath.

But the first thing you should understand is that you have to start taking responsibility for your life. Make the right decisions and accept the consequences of your decisions, take your responsibilities in life seriously and then everything eventually starts working itself out.

If you have a question, ask it. research it. Work it out, and move on to the next. This is because one decision leads you to others, or misleads you to the next by giving you a poor foundation.

Anyway if you ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you, FIRST you have to realise His Holy Spirit is already speaking to you in a small still voice within you. Then via prayer, concentration or whatever term you deem it, just send out a message, prayer, signal ... again whatever term you want to use ..... to the Lord to prove Himself to you.

If you are a doubting Thomas that needs to see before they believe, He sometimes gives them the visual. It's up to HIM and your heart.

Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


For eventually Strath, you have tio believe and THEN you will SEE rather than always wanting to see and then believe.

 

[Davidjayjordan]

Which is of course not responsive in any way to what I said. Is there an account of Peter whining or complaining? No. He started walking, the wind whipped up, and he started to sink. What did he do? He called out....to the lord! He had utter faith in Jesus to save him from sinking, but not to prevent him from sinking. There goes that moving goalpost again. And no matter how you slice it or how many times you say it in different ways, that's the last account of anyone even getting that far. Of course you can always say nobody has done it yet simply because either their faith wasn't strong enough or it wasn't really necessary, but unless you can come up with further accounts of successfully completed faith-based walking on water, it is reasonable to conclude that Jesus set a goal nobody could complete, either by demanding unattainable faith or perpetually denying the necessity. All show, no go. Not one person, among the millions of good and devout believers who have perished at sea, has walked ashore to tell the tale. No go. No go at all.

Bruto, bruto bruto, you are such a doubter, and so lacking in courage.

At this point in time I would never ever want you on any team I would be coaching as you just don;t believe, don't have the vision of winning, the must do atitute. You just can;t envision victory or doing the impossible. At present you are so negative you only see DEFEAT and FAILURE, like most atheists.

We walked on water financially for decades without so-called solid footing. We walked on water health wise without finances for us and kids for decades and the Lord pulled us through unscathed and healthy.

What's mere walking on literal water. When it is necessary, it will happen, the LORD WILL DELIVER and always has.

The Lord dried up the RED SEA for the first Christians that believed in the Messiah and will do it again at the Jordan River when we cross again.

http://www.geocities.com/davidjayjordan/CrossingtheJordan.html

Not for show, but because we gotta GO on down the Kings Highway t Petra.

So you see, bruto faith isn;t some kind of instant ZAP BOOM< MAGIC PRESTO... it is faityhfully walking with the Lord, so your faith increases day by day, week by week, year by year... and you just have the FAITH to do whatever. You don;t try to muster it up like the church people, it is just something you have and KNOW and DO, because you have followed the Lord and know He will deliver.

It is just the rational next step... keep walking on water.

Its step by step, precept by precept, experience by experience

 

[RandFan]

Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

For eventually Strath, you have tio believe and THEN you will SEE rather than always wanting to see and then believe.

Yes, I agree absolutely.

The problem is, this works with all religions. If you believe in Vishnu or Mithra or Allah then your intuition (still small voice) will tell you that you are correct and that your chosen theology is correct.

That is why Muslims fly planes into buildings.
That is why people die and kill other people for their god.

So, pick a theology, Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, Catholic, Protestant, Satanism, etc. and believe it and read the holly scripture, go to religious services regularly and the more you do the more fervent your belief will become.

Good luck and enjoy the brainwashing.

 

[Kopji]

Dave is of course precisely correct on this one.

Except maybe for that bit about bluto's courage, which seems like another poison the (already rather polluted) well, sprinkled with ad hom.

The point to remember for everyone who suffers from a life tragedy is that if you suffer it is ultimately your own fault. Jesus is there waiting to help you through if you only have enough faith. Your suffering is your own doing, so remember that.

You would have sunk anyway, so what's the real risk in trusting Jesus? Those who keep the faith are rewarded, those who do not sink to the depths. There is a certain perfection in this isn't there? Peter would have sunk anyway, but with Jesus there, he had hope. Only an evil person who refused to see the manifest truth of Jesus sinks. If you sink, you were an evil person.

Doubt is not the absence of faith it is a test of faith. Peter had faith to step out but he did not count the cost and he "looked down." It was only then that Peter began to falter and sink. Yet, the hand of grace pulled Peter to safety.

There is a great lesson of faith in this passage of Scripture where Jesus walks on the water. First, it is that Jesus has control over the situation. The wind and turmoil of the waves obeyed Him. As born again believers, if we keep our eyes on the LORD rather than the situation that threatens to engulf us, we too can walk through the waves with confidence in Christ's ability to bring us peace in the middle of what ever storm is raging over our lives. There is nothing that we can face as born again believers that is outside of God's control (1 Corinthians 10:13).

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/jesus-walks-on-water-faq.htm

The reality though, is that it is not only a solitary figure of a kindly holy man we are asked to take the hand of. The Jesus who walks toward us on the lake is joined by murderous clergy, rapists, terrorists, hateful faithful, false prophets, thousands of open hands wanting our time and money, all speaking in his name...

In a time of tragedy or great hardship faith is not the win-win decision that it is presented. It is a kind of baggage. The 'simple faith' told in this myth died long ago, and even in the time it was told, seems to ask for a naive acceptance of authority.

If you struggle, trust us and all will be well.

 

[RandFan]

At this point in time I would never ever want you on any team I would be coaching as you just don;t believe, don't have the vision of winning, the must do atitute. You just can;t envision victory or doing the impossible. At present you are so negative you only see DEFEAT and FAILURE, like most atheists.

No, atheists aren't mindless robots who will believe whatever BS comes down the line.

You can believe in anything and in so doing become convinced of that belief. See Muslims, Sikhs, Hindu's, Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses, Scientologists, etc.

 

[strathmeyer]

I always try to answer sincere questions, Strath.

But the first thing you should understand is that you have to start taking responsibility for your life. Make the right decisions and accept the consequences of your decisions, take your responsibilities in life seriously and then everything eventually starts working itself out.

If you have a question, ask it. research it. Work it out, and move on to the next. This is because one decision leads you to others, or misleads you to the next by giving you a poor foundation.

Anyway if you ask the Lord to reveal Himself to you, FIRST you have to realise His Holy Spirit is already speaking to you in a small still voice within you. Then via prayer, concentration or whatever term you deem it, just send out a message, prayer, signal ... again whatever term you want to use ..... to the Lord to prove Himself to you.

If you are a doubting Thomas that needs to see before they believe, He sometimes gives them the visual. It's up to HIM and your heart.

Jhn 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Davidjayjordan, I need you to understand that I take absolute, 100% responsibility of my life. In fact, if I have a flaw it is that I do this too much. You, again, are assuming things about me even though you don't know me at all, and, again, your assumptions are very telling about you.

I do have many questions. And I have asked them. To you. And you have ignored them. And yet you seem to go on and on about how this is my fault.

How can I realize that his holy spirit is talking to me? The words you are speaking don't make any sense, and when I ask you about them, you ignore me. Why would you lie to and ignore someone who wants to learn things from you?

If someone claims to have knowledge about some great thing yet refuses to tell you about it, the person is either evil or a fraud.

Luckily I know which you are.

For eventually Strath, you have tio believe and THEN you will SEE rather than always wanting to see and then believe.

Yes, Davidjayjordan, it's called "make believe". That's why you believe in god, read bible stories, and practice religion, instead of knowing about god, reading historical accounts, and acting like a normal person.

 

[bruto]

Bruto, bruto bruto, you are such a doubter, and so lacking in courage.

Why should my contrary interpretation of scripture amount to a lack of courage? You do not know me, and that is an immensely arrogant assumption on your part. You bristle and whine at ad hominem attacks, but you cannot refrain from them yourself, can you? You're the one who needs Jesus to tell you everything you can do, to guide you and to save you. I'm content to live and die without his help.

At this point in time I would never ever want you on any team I would be coaching as you just don;t believe, don't have the vision of winning, the must do atitute. You just can;t envision victory or doing the impossible. At present you are so negative you only see DEFEAT and FAILURE, like most atheists.

I certainly would not want you to be my coach in any pursuit of mine. I succeed by doing what needs to be done, and trying my best to do so with skill and work rather than manipulation and false promises. Yours is the attitude of defeat and excuses. You strike me as the kind of coach who would dictate a losing strategy and then blame the players when it fails, just as you blame everything but your own incomprehension for others' failure to agree with your zany ideas, and everything but your own incompetence for your failures.

We walked on water financially for decades without so-called solid footing. We walked on water health wise without finances for us and kids for decades and the Lord pulled us through unscathed and healthy.

Metaphor doesn't cut it here unless you're ready to acknowledge that the Biblical story itself is metaphor. I will gladly so concede, but if you mean it literally, then metaphor is irrelevant. The fact that you and your children have apparently survived despite your improvidence is more to their credit than yours.

What's mere walking on literal water. When it is necessary, it will happen, the LORD WILL DELIVER and always has.

And yet, as the Bible so eloquently describes it, he NEVER actually has. Not even the great Saint Peter, the Rock of the church, had enough faith to pull it off. It's another pie in the sky. Bait and switch.

The Lord dried up the RED SEA for the first Christians

Christians?

that believed in the Messiah and will do it again at the Jordan River when we cross again.

You go ahead and cross. I'm content to stay on this side.

http://www.notachance, pal

Not for show, but because we gotta GO on down the Kings Highway t Petra.

So you see, bruto faith isn;t some kind of instant ZAP BOOM< MAGIC PRESTO... it is faityhfully walking with the Lord, so your faith increases day by day, week by week, year by year... and you just have the FAITH to do whatever. You don;t try to muster it up like the church people, it is just something you have and KNOW and DO, because you have followed the Lord and know He will deliver.

But in the context of the Bible story, that does not wash. Jesus demanded exactly that Zap boom magic presto all at once faith, and chewed poor Peter out for not having it right, even when he did in fact, have faith that the lord would deliver.

It is just the rational next step... keep walking on water.

Its step by step, precept by precept, experience by experience

I'm not selling my boat.

 

[Macoy]

I always try to answer sincere questions, Strath.

Trying, even though you are, is not good enough.

 

[bruto]

DJJ, the dire prospect of being invited by you and yours to cross the Jordan has, I regret to say, woken my sleeping doggerel again, so with apologies to actual poets, I append:

Paradise Declined

The end time looms, the barking prophets cry!
The faithful few queue up and beg for space.
They leave the doomed and luckless no goodbyes,
And gird for battle, covetous of grace.

But when the turncoat deity's moved on,
Must preterites beweep their outcast state?
Perhaps God's loaf, no tenderer than stone
Has lingered long enough on mankind's plate.

Old Solomon, though often rude, was wise:
A time for all, to everything a season.
Now uneclipsed, the sun of man may rise,
And wit, once dulled by gods, return to reason.

Jehovah's price is more than rapture's worth.
Leave me behind, to love the godless earth.

 

[Davidjayjordan]

Dave is of course precisely correct on this one.

Except maybe for that bit about bluto's courage, which seems like another poison the (already rather polluted) well, sprinkled with ad hom.

The point to remember for everyone who suffers from a life tragedy is that if you suffer it is ultimately your own fault. Jesus is there waiting to help you through if you only have enough faith. Your suffering is your own doing, so remember that.

You would have sunk anyway, so what's the real risk in trusting Jesus? Those who keep the faith are rewarded, those who do not sink to the depths. There is a certain perfection in this isn't there? Peter would have sunk anyway, but with Jesus there, he had hope. Only an evil person who refused to see the manifest truth of Jesus sinks. If you sink, you were an evil person.


The reality though, is that it is not only a solitary figure of a kindly holy man we are asked to take the hand of. The Jesus who walks toward us on the lake is joined by murderous clergy, rapists, terrorists, hateful faithful, false prophets, thousands of open hands wanting our time and money, all speaking in his name...

In a time of tragedy or great hardship faith is not the win-win decision that it is presented. It is a kind of baggage. The 'simple faith' told in this myth died long ago, and even in the time it was told, seems to ask for a naive acceptance of authority.

If you struggle, trust us and all will be well.

Pretty good summation K... as it seems you truly and honestly understand how truly dangerous and vile the church system is, and how different it is than JESUS.

We almost all face trials, tests, and hardships, but what faith does for you is keep you believing in love and in loving others regardless of the pressures that would make you nasty and vicious and unloving like the majority that collapse under the pressure.

But no one is evil for sinking, for we are all men of like passion and weaknesses, we just hope to learn from our sinkings and go on.... Peter wasn;t evil for sinking but strong enough to start walking on water and continue to do so until Jesus finnished his feat for him.

 

[RandFan]

But no one is evil for sinking, for we are all men of like passion and weaknesses, we just hope to learn from our sinkings and go on.... Peter wasn;t evil for sinking but strong enough to start walking on water and continue to do so until Jesus finnished his feat for him.

Sure. It's as good mythology as any other. You don't answer questions or respond to folks you just drive by post. Thing is, why do you suppose it matters to anyone? It's clear to any reasonable person you are inssicere and unwilling to engage in discussion so why do you do it? That's right, you don't answer questions. Oh well.

 

[Kopji]

Not to delve into my Sunday school lessons, but didn't Jesus say something like 'I will build my church'.

So here they are. What's the complaint?

The Greek word is ekklesia, meaning "an assembly, a congregation"
2. It is used in the Bible most often in two senses:
a. The church "universal" - the whole assembly of people who
are saved, both living and dead
b. The church "local" - a company of saved people in a
geographical area who work and worship together as a local
congregation
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/matt/mt16_13.htm

 

[Davidjayjordan]

DJJ, the dire prospect of being invited by you and yours to cross the Jordan has, I regret to say, woken my sleeping doggerel again, so with apologies to actual poets, I append:

Paradise Declined

The end time looms, the barking prophets cry!
The faithful few queue up and beg for space.
They leave the doomed and luckless no goodbyes,
And gird for battle, covetous of grace.

But when the turncoat deity's moved on,
Must preterites beweep their outcast state?
Perhaps God's loaf, no tenderer than stone
Has lingered long enough on mankind's plate.

Old Solomon, though often rude, was wise:
A time for all, to everything a season.
Now uneclipsed, the sun of man may rise,
And wit, once dulled by gods, return to reason.

Jehovah's price is more than rapture's worth.
Leave me behind, to love the godless earth.

Ahh but reason and courage dictate a finer end
Where love and life become one again.
Where the Creator unites the halves to the whole
Like streams joining a river to flow.

When the godless earth becomes heaven's domain
And only those with love remain.

 

[Davidjayjordan]

Not to delve into my Sunday school lessons, but didn't Jesus say something like 'I will build my church'.

So here they are. What's the complaint?

Quote:
The Greek word is ekklesia, meaning "an assembly, a congregation"
2. It is used in the Bible most often in two senses:
a. The church "universal" - the whole assembly of people who
are saved, both living and dead
b. The church "local" - a company of saved people in a
geographical area who work and worship together as a local
congregation
http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_out...tt/mt16_13.htm


__________________

Good work Kopji...as yes, Jesus will build his ecclesia, his called OUT ones who are not nationalistic and materialistic. And this church will not be built of stones but living breathing stones...people, those that love Him with all their hearts.


Hsa 8:14 (But) Israel hath forgotten his Maker, and buildeth temples;




For man loves his buildings and the works of his own hands..... but the true church is spiritual and is made of love.

 

[RandFan]

Ahh but reason and courage dictate a finer end
Where love and life become one again.
Where the Creator unites the halves to the whole
Like streams joining a river to flow.

When the godless earth becomes heaven's domain
And only those with love remain.

What is it the Bible teaches us? - raping, cruelty, and murder. What is it the New Testament teaches us? - to believe that the Almighty committed debauchery with a woman engaged to be married, and the belief of this debauchery is called faith.


--Thomas Paine

 

[RandFan]

...but the true church is spiritual and is made of love.

So long as you are kind to your slaves.

 

[Eos of the Eons]

I see you are a missionary for your religion of nothingness

Not a missionary
Not a religion of nothingness

Why would you use those terms that way? A missionary tries to convert people to their religion. Randfan is not attempting to convert anyone. Randfan is bringing up some points that you could address.

That's what I hate the most. Trying to converse about actual religion is an act of a missionary for the religion of nothingness? That's warped logic if I ever heard it.

You started this thread, so discuss "stuff" with Randfan, or at least don't accuse Randfan of something like being a "missionary".