Moderated The NYPD and Molten Concrete

I wish I had a nickel for every time an architect said something wrong. I would have more money than BIll Gates and Warren Buffet combined. :rolleyes:
I wish I had a nickel for every time a not-Truther said something wrong. I would have more money than BIll Gates, Warren Buffet and Animal combined.
 
Architect, Bart Voorsanger, an architect hired to save 'relics from the rubble,' did a 'hands-on' examination of a multi-ton 'meteorite' found in the WTC debris.

He stated for the record, as well as in a History Channel documentary, that it was a 'fused element of molten steel and concrete.'

MM

Architect = metallurgist?
 
molten steel

Ladies and gentlemen, the turbo facepalm:

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I thought this thread was about molten concrete at the NYPD museum? It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.

Crushed concrete, mixed with water, can re-set. Simple. See also the phenomenon of "beach rock", where you can find all sorts of odd things embedded into it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beachrock
 
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The concrete did not melt

That contradicts what the NYPD curator at the time, one Beth Spenelli had put on the plaque. It says "fire temperatures were so intense that concrete melted like lava around anything in it's path"

One would think that the people responsible for respecting those who perished on 9/11 would do their homework before asserting such a thing.


The tremendous heat and energy of the collapse and fires could cause the debris to form around the gun like concrete.

What would that debris be? Interestingly your quote brings a paper to mind from 2004 by RJ Lee group.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

RJ Lee knows/knew it takes 2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize (volatilize) lead.

The thread is not really about melted concrete, or a mistake made by a museum
.

That's good to know, as I inserted RJ Lees findings from 2004
Is that what you think this is? A mistake? I supposed RJ Lee made a mistake as well? No I beleive the information was taken from somewhere, where I don't know. Can't locate Beth Spenelli for some reason.

The gun looks like the concrete did melt around it; so?

So if it's concrete then something other then fire was in the building; right?
 
That contradicts what the NYPD curator at the time, one Beth Spenelli had put on the plaque. It says "fire temperatures were so intense that concrete melted like lava around anything in it's path"

One would think that the people responsible for respecting those who perished on 9/11 would do their homework before asserting such a thing.

What would that debris be? Interestingly your quote brings a paper to mind from 2004 by RJ Lee group.

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

RJ Lee knows/knew it takes 2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize (volatilize) lead.

That's good to know, as I inserted RJ Lees findings from 2004
Is that what you think this is? A mistake? I supposed RJ Lee made a mistake as well? No I believe the information was taken from somewhere, where I don't know. Can't locate Beth Spenelli for some reason.

So if it's concrete then something other then fire was in the building; right?
Mistake? lol
How could the concrete be melted, it means the gun would be melted too. Have you told them the concrete did not really melt, but it looks like it did? What did they say? Are you saying the concrete did melt? The museum does not lie and say 911 was an inside job, and making a mistake is not as bad as being nuts like 911 truth and spreading lies about thermite and some undefined fantasy inside job.

Next you will be saying explosives were used because there were loud noises on 911.

Quote-mining RJ Lee, and then making up a lie that the temperature in the WTC fires was 2800F and 3100F out of thin air (googled without thinking). How do you leap to lies so quickly? The temperatures in the WTC were what you get in big office fires; try looking that up.

Is 911 an inside job for you?

What temperature does concrete become "crumbly"?

The temperatures in the WTC fires were normal for office fires. Some steel was exposed to temperatures as high as 1000C. Another report - RJ Lee never said how hot the fires were, he reported on the stuff found in a particular building - do you know what building it was? Do you know the samples were taken after clean up? No? You quote-mine, show me the temperature RJ Lee said on 911. ??

E=mgh was released on 911. More energy than 130 tons of TNT in each tower of Kinetic energy was released, which crumbled some concrete at room temperature and in fires; the energy also crushed ceiling tiles and wallboard. Most the dust was wallboard, insulations, and some was concrete. No thermite, no bombs, no inside job.
You can look up the temperature concrete has problems.

Lead was not vaporized at 3100F on 911, it was already on the mineral wool when it was installed. There was no melted steel on 911, but feel free to present some evidence. Extremely high temperatures are 1000C. You don't have to boil lead to get vaporized lead on stuff.

What is your overall 911 conclusion? Stop tap-dancing and state your claims. Save some time.


What would that debris be? Interestingly your quote brings a paper to mind from 2004 by RJ Lee group.
?
You mean this one?

Damage Assessment 130 Liberty Street Property
Report Date: December 2003​

WTC Dust Signature Report​

Composition and Morphology​

... Where does it say
2800F to melt iron and upwards of 3100F+ to vaporize
Page number?

BTW, did you read the OP? Here is the original OP for you to read, where it appears to be a rant against NYPD, with zero stuff about melted concrete. http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/

It is not about RJ Lee, who found no thermite, and no evidence of melted steel, or melted concrete.

http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
Any comment on the original topic? Why can't you tell the museum the concrete did not melt?

What else will you present by cherrypicking RJ Lee? Something like this?
and see the "iron spheres" that they found - along with evidence of high temperature melting (not typical office fire temperature type melting). http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5313444&postcount=13
But RJ Lee says...
Particles of materials that had been modified by exposure to high temperature, such as spherical particles of iron and silicates, are common in WTC Dust because of the fire that accompanied the WTC Event, but are not common in “normal” interior office dust.
RJ Lee debunks thermite, but it take reading comprehension.
Iron-rich spheres from iron-bearing building components or contents (RJ Lee report)
RJ Lee says the rich iron spheres are from fires in the WTC because there was iron-bearing building components.

Using RJ Lee to support melted concrete is silly. What were you trying to imply?
 
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A coal seam fireWP can burn for years even though they're underground.

Irony, he was sitting next to his wood-stove; to get your highest temperatures and longest burns in a wood-stove, you cutoff the air supply to the minimum.

1111awoodstovenoairhotterfirelol.jpg

Self-debunking. As he insults education, book learning, physics, the dead of 911, intelligence, and more.
 
So if it's concrete then something other then fire was in the building; right?
People were evacuating those towers all the way until they collapsed using the buildings vertical core-centered circulation (AKA stair wells) where these alleged incendiaries are claimed to have had to been. Not a single one reported suspicious burning, odors, or otherwise that would have indicated an active process. Reports coming in weeks after the fact come far too late to establish any link to the immediate collapse event nor will you be capable of providing photographic or any other visual evidence showing damage to the structural elements that can connect with the time of the collapses.... so.... best of luck trying to establish any meaningful connection between what those witnesses "reported" - if we take their worlds literally - and what was relevant to the immediate fate of the buildings

As far as arguing is concerned... this is not new, it's been argued since 2006, and stuff that didn't work 7 years ago isn't going to pass the sniff test now,

It is a curious thing, how a gun can melt right into concrete. Can fire really melt concrete around a gun like that? That's what it says on the plaque behind the artifact in the museum.
"Melted" no. But all of those materials essentially cooked in a debris stew for several weeks which was bound to make for some "interesting" finds. If you want to connect this to incendiaries go right ahead, but you have jump through many hoops to make such a claim relevant to events that took place long before these pieces were found and long before they had a chance to "stew" in that environment after the fact.
 
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Irony, he was sitting next to his wood-stove; to get your highest temperatures and longest burns in a wood-stove, you cutoff the air supply to the minimum.

In the interests of balance, fairness and other lovey-dovey stuff ... ;)

I disagree totally with the former, but agree with the latter.

If you want max temperatures open up those vents. If you want useful household heat it might be a different story.

The proof of this pudding would be where the fire stops flaming because the vents are shut, but continues to smoulder at low temps for a long time.
 
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Rollex - have you contacted the museum and asked them to clarify that particular plaque on that exhibit?
 
Lead was not vaporized at 3100F on 911,

Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
 
because it's wrong.

Lead does not need to volatilize to form lead oxide: molten lead does this.
 
Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Not so - your logic is wrong.
 
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Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Below 1000 degrees, under certain circumstances, below 700 degrees. And?
 
Then why does the report read like this:

"The presence of lead oxide on the surface of mineral wool indicates the existence of extremely high temperatures during the collapse which caused metallic lead to volatilize, oxidize, and finally condense on the surface of the mineral wool."

Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at? The words look quite clear to me. key words to me are "during the collapse" "extremely high temp" and "caused lead to volatilize"


Can you show me please at what temperature lead volatilizes at; because that temperature would in fact be the extremely high one.
Did you read the real OP yet?
http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
The real OP, did you read it. Did you miss it?>
http://yankee451.com/2012/07/15/963/
It is about police corruption. LOL, it is stupid, pure nonsense.

LOL. What is your point. The report says high temperature.

Stop tap dancing, stop the gish gallop, stop moving the goal posts. Come out and state your theory on this subject. You already missed the OP, it was removed because 451 posts his web site with over sized photos and all, as the OP. Copy and paste woo, which essentially was an attack on the NY police.

Did concrete melt. Then how did a gun survive?

The debris from the WTC must of formed around the weapons, under great pressure, water from firefighting, rust from the fires and water, caused the debris to form into what looks like melted concrete to the layperson, even me maybe. We should all ask the museum to get an expert in this subject to explain exactly how the exhibit was formed in the massive collapse, and fires with more heat than an atom bomb, a small one. Golly gee, the heat from the jet fuel was equal to 315 tons of TNT in each plane, guess what the pre collapse office fires were. Do you want me to use joules?

What is you point. Stop wasting time and declare yourself. Be a real JREFer, tell the truth early and often.

Some people have explained how the "melted concrete gun" was formed, we could contact the museum and explain whey the label might be misleading. That is all we can do.

If you love to quote mine RJ Lee and make up your own temperatures involved on 911, have at it. But stop using RJ Lee to push your fake stuff. It proves you failed to read and comprehend the RJ Lee paper, if you ever did. I have had the paper for years, do you need a copy?

Stop beating around the bush. Was 911 an inside job, or what? Don't be shy.


That contradicts what the NYPD curator at the time, one Beth Spenelli had put on the plaque. ... ?
Maybe you could look up how lead could be on stuff... Maybe not.
How do you know Spenelli did it? Is that Beth related to Beth Spinelli? Which one did it?

http://www.nycpolicemuseum.org/collections/index.html

Beth Spinelli
Registrar/Collections Manager
tel: (212) 480-3100 x127
email: [email protected]
Appointment hours are Tuesday-Thursday 11AM-4PM.
 
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