What is paranormal in Homeopathy

Dr. MAS said:
I am ready to explain the scientific nature of homeopathic medicinal effect in the body? Natrum Sulph was written just for an example.

Before I would like to start, I would like to know who are you? Where are you located? What is your qualification? What is your professional field? How much experience do you have? What is phone number? So that I could guess that whether you can understand what I am going to write? Or it will be wasted of time.
Phone number? That's a new one. Well, congratulations, Dr. MAS, you have found a never-before-tried evasion: "I can explain how it works, but you must give me your phone number before I will do it."

:nope:

You disappoint me. I thought you came here for a serious debate.


Hans
 
This forum contains people from many professions, so I'm sure there will be many who can follow your arguments. When you post to this forum, you address your reply to the community, with its wide experience, not to the individual.

I'm not a medical man. Nor am I a chemist, a bioligist or a physicist. I'm a computer scientist, and therefore principally interested in your logical approach to the application of Homeopathy.

My name is not a pseudonym, and my profile contains a link which provides all the detail you require for verification - although I would prefer you did not use them, as the contact details are principally business-oriented.

So... bring it on!
 
Hay Steenkh,

Are you also interested in understanding the action of scientific nature of homeopathic dilution in the body?

I have done many graduations and master degrees in many subjects just to understand what homeopathy is. Before I would like to teach you, you have to qualify basic prelimnary test otherwise it would be wastage of time. Do you agree?

Troll does not write so openly. mind it.

Don't escape by declaring trolling posts. :D
 
Dr. MAS said:
OK, you confirmed, that part of homeopathy is paranormal… Hammm atlast you came at ONE point agenda. Do ask to other member, are they agree with you?

Yes


I am ready to explain the scientific nature of homeopathic medicinal effect in the body? Natrum Sulph was written just for an example.

Before I would like to start, I would like to know who are you? Where are you located? What is your qualification? What is your professional field? How much experience do you have? What is phone number? So that I could guess that whether you can understand what I am going to write? Or it will be wasted of time.

This forum has memebers how are experts in chemistry, physics, biology, medicine (both human and vetinery), biochemistry and many other areas. I am sitting within 100 yards of experts in most areas of human knowlage belive there is nothing you can produce that we cannot understand or find someone who does.
 
pmckean said: This forum contains people from many professions, so I'm sure there will be many who can follow your arguments. When you post to this forum, you address your reply to the community, with its wide experience, not to the individual.

Dr. MAS: But those are not interested in understanding in the scientific nature of explanation. And to them “paranormal” is something else. As you can see, they all give different definitions of paranoramlity.

It was you who confirmed that scientific explanation of homeopathic dilution is the paranormal part of homeopathy and now you have to come forward.

You were interested so you have to pass through the exam which is very very simple and to the point. I assure you, I will not deceive you? Because this simple understanding is necessary for future difficult explanations.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Hay Steenkh,

Are you also interested in understanding the action of scientific nature of homeopathic dilution in the body?

I am interested in finding out what you think it is

I have done many graduations and master degrees in many subjects just to understand what homeopathy is. Before I would like to teach you, you have to qualify basic prelimnary test otherwise it would be wastage of time. Do you agree?

Couple of A levels do for starters? 3 years worth of degree program in chemistry?

Troll does not write so openly. mind it.

Don't escape by declaring trolling posts. :D [/B]

Isn't that what you are trying to do?
 
Geni came out from the basket in the following manner: ;) This forum has memebers how are experts in chemistry, physics, biology, medicine (both human and vetinery), biochemistry and many other areas. I am sitting within 100 yards of experts in most areas of human knowlage belive there is nothing you can produce that we cannot understand or find someone who does.

Dr. MAS: Call your experts here. I am waiting and comeup to my basic criteria above. ;)
 
Dr. MAS said:
[
Dr. MAS: But those are not interested in understanding in the scientific nature of explanation. And to them “paranormal” is something else. As you can see, they all give different definitions of paranoramlity.

Doesn't matter people will still pay attention to your claims

It was you who confirmed that scientific explanation of homeopathic dilution is the paranormal part of homeopathy and now you have to come forward.

You were interested so you have to pass through the exam which is very very simple and to the point. I assure you, I will not deceive you? Because this simple understanding is necessary for future difficult explanations. [/B]


Stragely I don't have to take a test every time I want to read tet letters
 
I've provided my details via my profile, Dr. MAS, however I fear that my knowledge doesn't fall within the fields that you require.

I have to say that I'm disappointed; I think you're being deliberately evasive, now. Please prove me wrong.
I can see no real reason why you cannot impart the knowledge you claim to have.

As myself and others have noted - even if it goes beyond the span of an individual's knowledge, the collective experience and qualifications of forum members is quite formidable. Consider it a form of peer review - an invaluable technique is providing verifiable science, I know you'll agree.
 
Dr. MAS said:
I have done many graduations and master degrees in many subjects just to understand what homeopathy is. Before I would like to teach you, you have to qualify basic prelimnary test otherwise it would be wastage of time. Do you agree?
Your arrogance is appalling! Many of us here are very highly educated, and in the many months and years that we've been here, we haven't shamelessly paraded our qualifications about in the way you have in the first few days of your presence on this forum.

It might do you well to remember that multiple degrees and graduations do not necessarily neutralize inherent idiocy.

In any case, you still haven't answered my very visible multicolored question and so I will repeat it here under the assumption that you didn't notice it the last two times:

Is there any way to demonstrate the efficacy of homeopathic drugs while eliminating all other explanations?

YES OR NO?
 
Dr. MAS said:
Why are you applying Avogadro's law here? And what is the hitch in not applying “probability law”? Somebody told you about Avogadro's law and you blindly started writing comments that the dilution does not contain any molecule in above 18c potency and never thought that there are so many chemistry rules which can be applied other than Avogadro's law.

First you declare and verify on this forum that according to you “the paranormal part of homeopathy is, its dilution has no molecule in above 30c potency” then a protocol can be built to prove that “yes”, the molecules are present in 31c potency. Ok come forward and verify your statement. ;)
Well, perhaps we are moving forward a little here.

Dr. Mas seems to think he can show that there are molecules of the mother tincture present in a dilution greater than 30C. Since he seems to be aware of the discreteness af matter and the magnitude of Avogadro's number, perhaps we have to speculate how he intends to do this.

Let me make a prediction.

His chosen method will not be any physical test, it will be theoretical.

There would, theoretically, be mother tincture molecules present in a 30C preparation if the volume of the preparation was sufficiently great.

Consider a thought experiment. Instead of the classical method of preparing C-series homoeopathic solutions, in which 99% of each dilution step is thrown away, you don't throw anything away.

[Health warning: I may have got this wrong. If I have, feel free to make fun of me.]

You begin with 0.01ml of the mother tincture.
You make this up to 1ml with stock solvent and succuss.
You then make this up to 100ml with stock solvent and succuss.
You then make this up to 10L with stock solvent and succuss.
You then make this up to 1,000L with stock solvent and succuss.

I think you get the general idea. We've reached 4C. How many litres do we have when we get to 30C? I'm sure Dr. Mas can tell us. (Hint, it's a 10 followed by 54 zeros, in this calculation.)

Nevertheless, nothing has been thrown away. Therefore, the original 0.01ml of the mother tincture is still there. Of course. The dilution is so astronomical that there is no possible way that you could physically detect these molecules, but it's undeniable they're floating around in there somewhere. In theory of course, because it's impossible to do this experiment for real due to the enormous quantities involved.

Thus there is a finite possibility that a (say) 10ml sample of this astronomical quantity of material might have a single molecule in it. Maybe even more than one molecule, if these questionable clustering effects described in a couple of papers actually exist, though in that case the probability of a second sample having any molecules is proportionately reduced.

This is a fact. If you prepare enough (say) Belladonna 30C, you will eventually come across one bottle with a molecule in it. Just how much you'd need to prepare to give yourself a 50/50 chance is something I leave for others to calculate. (Actually, it's not easy as we don't know the concentration of the mother tincture, and the mother tincture is itself a mish-mash of everything to be found in the entire deadly nightshade plant.)

Of course, this is entirely irrelevant to any clinical effects of homoeopathic remedies. If this one molecule in this extremely rare bottle of remedy is the important thing, then what about all the other bottles which have no molecules in them? Don't they "work"? The claim that homoeopathy works clearly requires that all the bottles of remedy are efficacious, not just the very very rare bottle that happens to have the molecule.

I think Dr. Mas knows all this. I also wonder if he's trying to play silly probability claims. OK, me first. Theoretically, I can show that there are molecules of the mother tincture still present in a 30C preparation, so long as you allow me to assume that I have 10<sup>54</sup> litres of the stuff. And you don't expect me to be able to demonstrate this in any way other than theoretically.

Can I have the million? :D

Rolfe.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Rolfe said: Dr. Mas, please clarify why you are so concerned about this word "paranormal".

Dr. MAS: I had no concerned but when your people created a special separate forum on that “word” then it became part of study. You people created the forum and started discussing on that "word", so i thought I should learn the meaning from paranormal intellectuals. :D Still I have not followed what exactly the paranormal in homeopathy is. :(
Originally posted by Rolfe (BEFORE the above)
We have already explained to you several times our reasons for using this terminology. Namely, that you claim that a substance which has had a magic spell performed on it (the diluting and succussing) has properties which are not present in an identical substance which has not had the spell performed on it; and that the theory of homoeopathy is a prime example of Sympathetic Magic (the "like cures like" is the part called Imitative - or, hysterically, Homoeopathic - Magic, and the idea that the potentised preparation retains some of the qualities of the remedy it was once in contact with even when none of the actual molecules are left is the part called "Contagious Magic"). You have entirely failed even to acknowledge these answers, instead merely coming back and repeating your original question.
What is it about these explanations you don't understand?

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
I think Dr. Mas knows all this. I also wonder if he's trying to play silly probability claims. OK, me first. Theoretically, I can show that there are molecules of the mother tincture still present in a 30C preparation, so long as you allow me to assume that I have 10<sup>54</sup> litres of the stuff. And you don't expect me to be able to demonstrate this in any way other than theoretically.

at that much water would fill a cube aprox 10<sup>111</sup> light years cube. That is rather larger than the generaly accepted size of the universe.
 
geni said:
at that much water would fill a cube aprox 10<sup>111</sup> light years cube. That is rather larger than the generaly accepted size of the universe.
So? I specifically said I could only demonstrate it in theory! :D

Actually, you could get the volume down quite a bit by "theoretically" starting with only a very very minute volume of the mother tincture. Maybe a volume so small that it would contain only one molecule? I haven't time to go through the sums, but it's possible you might have something more realistic at the end of such a calculation, simply because the starting volume is so tiny.

Of course, all we need to know to get the probability of there being one molecule in a specified volume of the final dilution is the actual molar concentration of the mother tincture. Which I don't suppose anybody knows. Especially as it must include things like DNA and chlorophyll and large proteins as well as molecules of atropine and hyoscine and so on.

Still, while I was typing, it looks as if the discussion has moved on.

Rolfe.
 
Dr. MAS said:
I have done many graduations and master degrees in many subjects just to understand what homeopathy is. Before I would like to teach you, you have to qualify basic prelimnary test otherwise it would be wastage of time. Do you agree?
Of course I do not agree. I can assure you that I am well-educated, but that is not of essence here. You are addressing the community, and you will find many well-qualified persons here. The individual does not have to be able to follow your argumentation.

You claim to possess scientific evidence for homoeopathy that for some reason has never been presented before. You also claim that we are too stupid to follow the extremely complicated reasoning that is behind it. It must be very lonely to sit on such unique scientific evidence without ever getting the Nobel prize in medicine because nobody can understand it!

Your argument is not unique, however. I recently had a debate with a religious person who possessed scientific evidence for the existence of God. Unfortunately, it would not be possible to understand it before one had enrolled in his religion!

As for trolling: It has nothing to do with hidden identities. Trolling is when somebody starts a discussion but does not contribute to it. You fan the flames, but you contribute nothing. Troll.
 
Dr. MAS said:
I am ready to explain the scientific nature of homeopathic medicinal effect in the body? Natrum Sulph was written just for an example.

Before I would like to start, I would like to know who are you? Where are you located? What is your qualification? What is your professional field? How much experience do you have? What is phone number? So that I could guess that whether you can understand what I am going to write? Or it will be wasted of time.
All right, end of discussion I think. Dr. Mas has indicated that he will only reply to P. McKean, because he was the one who posted the form of words Dr. Mas chose to claim to understand. However, he will only proceed if Mr. McKean provides a great deal of personal information.

Amazingly enough, Mr. McKean is prepared to provide this information, and does so. However, that isn't enough, because now
Before I would like to teach you, you have to qualify basic prelimnary test otherwise it would be wastage of time. Do you agree?

You were interested so you have to pass through the exam which is very very simple and to the point.
However, apart from providing personal information I can't see where he has indicated the nature of this simple exam.

Dr. Mas obviously came here to play silly word games, not to demonstrate that homoeopathy works. I note that even in the post I quoted, he hasn't said he can demonstrate that anything works, just that he will explain the scientific nature of the effect of homoeopathy on the body.

But only to the right people, and only if they provide him with a great deal of personal information.

He doesn't like the word "troll", but it's a good call.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
So? I specifically said I could only demonstrate it in theory! :D
That's good, as I really didn't want that puppy in my yard. :)

Rolfe said:
Of course, all we need to know to get the probability of there being one molecule in a specified volume of the final dilution is the actual molar concentration of the mother tincture. Which I don't suppose anybody knows. Especially as it must include things like DNA and chlorophyll and large proteins as well as molecules of atropine and hyoscine and so on.
What if we used Penta water? Isn't that stuff supposed to be magically delici... er, pure?

--Patch
 
Dr. MAS said:
Hay Steenkh,

Are you also interested in understanding the action of scientific nature of homeopathic dilution in the body?
I think we're all intterested in that. I also think we're also interested in knowing if it does anything other than quench one's thirst.

Dr. MAS said:
I have done many graduations and master degrees in many subjects just to understand what homeopathy is. Before I would like to teach you, you have to qualify basic prelimnary test otherwise it would be wastage of time. Do you agree?
Nope. I recently watched a fascinating show on TV that explained String Theory in terms easily understandable to a layman. Are you saying that you're incapable of describing homeopathy in simple terms? Is that why you're evading so many questions here?

Dr. MAS said:
Troll does not write so openly. mind it.
Yes, they do, for though you may be prolific in your writing, there's very little content.

--Patch
 

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