What is paranormal in Homeopathy

Darat said: Your accusation is untrue; I have no other "alias" on this board. On this board I am always "Darat" whether posting in my position as one of the Admins or a Member of the board.

Dr. MAS: Members attacked my personality, is this permissible when I want serious discussion on serious topic, Is this not noticeable to your moderators. An example is of member's signature which is direct attack on well educated and qualified homeopathy snoopy. I request him to remove the name.

Dr. MAS: If I hurt you, I take my words back. I also apologize to you for the same. :(
 
Rolfe said "If you are stating definiely that homoeopathy can cure conditions that cannot be cured by real medicine, then that is a very large and very testable claim."

Ok, come on this point. You declare on this forum that this is actuall part which is paranormal in homeopathy then we can make arrangement to prove our view point.

Is this paranormal to you? A real in your sense (allopathic medicine) cannot cure a patient but a homeopathic medicine can cure that patient. Yes, I claim and I can prove it. But first verify that this is paranormal part of homeopathy.
 
Is this paranormal to you? A real in your sense (allopathic medicine) cannot cure a patient but a homeopathic medicine can cure that patient. Yes, I claim and I can prove it. But first verify that this is paranormal part of homeopathy.

Hang on, I think I've got it. Are you assuming that in order to be tested for the claim, it has to be 'classed' as paranormal?

I believe (and as I don't speak for the JRef, you'd have to clear it first) that this isn't the case. Your claim would fit in with the 'pseudocientific' part of the challenge.

Therefore, your claim that you can prove that Homeopathic remedies can cure a patient is enough. Just apply.
 
Dr Mas, if you are looking to present your opinions in a safe area where responses can be guaranteed to not offend you, the internet is not the place for you.

If you can demonstrate that you are the target of unfair treatment or abuse that falls within the actionable areas of the forum's regulations, then the moderators may have some responsibility to act.

However, as far as I can tell you are being treated exactly as stubborn, arrogant and willfully ignorant people a) usually are and b) deserve to be treated.

In fact, as AT indicated, you have been treated with far more respect, tolerance and patience than you deserve.
 
Hello Dr. MAS,

To answer your question (though directed at another forum user) - consider the following syllogism:

------

Paranormal occurences are defined as beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.

The mechanisms through which Homeopathic remedies allegedly effect human biology are beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.

Therefore:

Homeopathic mechanims, are, by definition, paranormal.

------

Can we move past semantic argument and get onto the substantive topic of proof?
 
Patricio Elicer (Moderator) Comments: Dr. MAS, it's a well known fact that in any given amount of a substance, there's a limited (finite) number of molecules that makes it up. So there always exists a dilution beyond which no molecule of the substance will remain.

Dr. MAS: Dear Moderator, who told you about this “finale”. Why are you applying Avogadro's law here? And what is the hitch in not applying “probability law”? Somebody told you about Avogadro's law and you blindly started writing comments that the dilution does not contain any molecule in above 18c potency and never thought that there are so many chemistry rules which can be applied other than Avogadro's law.

First you declare and verify on this forum that according to you “the paranormal part of homeopathy is, its dilution has no molecule in above 30c potency” then a protocol can be built to prove that “yes”, the molecules are present in 31c potency. Ok come forward and verify your statement. ;)
 
Dr. MAS said:
Darat said: Your accusation is untrue; I have no other "alias" on this board. On this board I am always "Darat" whether posting in my position as one of the Admins or a Member of the board.

Dr. MAS: Members attacked my personality, is this permissible when I want serious discussion on serious topic, Is this not noticeable to your moderators. An example is of member's signature which is direct attack on well educated and qualified homeopathy snoopy. I request him to remove the name.

Dr. MAS: If I hurt you, I take my words back. I also apologize to you for the same. :(

If you believe a Member's post has breached their Membership agreement please use the "Report this post" and complete the page that will appear with your compliant.

You may of course request anything you like from any Member (within the general constraints of the Membership Agreement) however it is up to the Member whether they comply with your request or not.

I will not disrupt this thread with responses regarding the Forum and Forum Management; if you have any further questions or comments regarding the administration of the forum and wish for a Member of the Moderating Team to reply please start a new thread in the “Forum Management” section.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Ok, come on this point. You declare on this forum that this is actuall part which is paranormal in homeopathy then we can make arrangement to prove our view point.

Is this paranormal to you? A real in your sense (allopathic medicine) cannot cure a patient but a homeopathic medicine can cure that patient. Yes, I claim and I can prove it. But first verify that this is paranormal part of homeopathy.
Dr. Mas, please clarify why you are so concerned about this word "paranormal".

Are you intending to apply for the JREF Million Dollar Challenge? If so, speaking only as an interested bystander, I can tell you that Mr. Randi has stated many many times that homoeopathic claims are indeed eligible for the Challenge. If you read through the back issues of the Commentary you will find several places where this is confirmed.

As I understand it, all you have to do to win the money is to show that you can tell the difference between a potentised homoeopathic preparation (above 12C or 24X) and the stock carrier material. (For example, if your test homoeopathic material was sugar pills immersed in a Belladonna 30C potency, the material you'd have to distinguish it from would be some of the same batch of stock sugar pills immersed in some of the diluent from the same stock bottle as that used for the remedy preparation.) If you want that to be confirmed by a JREF representative, the best thing to do would be to ask them by email.

How you do this is entirely up to you. Showing that you could cure more patients with the potentised remedy than the stock material would certainly be one way to do it, but it is by no means the only way, and indeed quite a difficult test to organise to the degree of certainty required. Other people have suggested using proving effects to tell the difference. Any sort of physical or chemical analysis would also be permissible.

However, you said you were not an applicant for the Challenge. In that case, what does it matter whether or not you or we or anyone else calls homoeopathy "paranormal"? It's nothing but semantics.

We have already explained to you several times our reasons for using this terminology. Namely, that you claim that a substance which has had a magic spell performed on it (the diluting and succussing) has properties which are not present in an identical substance which has not had the spell performed on it; and that the theory of homoeopathy is a prime example of Sympathetic Magic (the "like cures like" is the part called Imitative - or, hysterically, Homoeopathic - Magic, and the idea that the potentised preparation retains some of the qualities of the remedy it was once in contact with even when none of the actual molecules are left is the part called "Contagious Magic"). You have entirely failed even to acknowledge these answers, instead merely coming back and repeating your original question.

So, if you are not an applicant for the Challenge, why does it matter whether or not we or you consider homoeopathy to be paranormal? The only relevant question is whether it works or not.

Rolfe.
 
PMCKean Comments: Paranormal occurences are defined as beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation.

Dr. MAS: Dear Pmc, You mean, if I claim that I can cure hepatitis with Nat Sulph 200 then it cannot be explained with scientific principles? Is this mean to you? Is this paranormal of homeopathy?

Ok verify my above statement, I can explain the scientific nature of use of Nat Sulph in Hepatitis patient. You may design any protocol? I am ready.

__________________
Student of Mass Communication
Coming from Homeopathic Skeptic Forum http://www.nch.ipbfree.com
Simple Profile Page: www.drmas.tk
 
Rolfe said: Dr. Mas, please clarify why you are so concerned about this word "paranormal".

Dr. MAS: I had no concerned but when your people created a special separate forum on that “word” then it became part of study. You people created the forum and started discussing on that "word", so i thought I should learn the meaning from paranormal intellectuals. :D Still I have not followed what exactly the paranormal in homeopathy is. :(
 
Hello Dr. MAS,

Thanks for your reply.

When you say "Nat Sulph 200", do you mean Sodium Sulphate solution diluted 200 times? If so, then yes, this cannot be explained by currenty understood scientific principles and could quite easily be categorised as paranormal.

As for protocols, please consider applying for the JREF $1m prize with this claim specifically. I'm sure they will work with you to agree an acceptable protocol.

I wonder if you could describe, however, your current therapeutic approach to applying Homeopathic remedies such as the one you describle - diagnosis, patient contact, prescription scenarios, progress assessment etc.

Do you have case studys?
 
Dr. MAS said:
Dear Pmc, You mean, if I claim that I can cure hepatitis with Nat Sulph 200 then it cannot be explained with scientific principles? Is this mean to you? Is this paranormal of homeopathy?
Obviously, if anybody claims they can cure something with something indistinguishable from pure water, it is a paranormal claim - if, and only if, a similar treatment with pure water does not have the same effect.


Ok verify my above statement, I can explain the scientific nature of use of Nat Sulph in Hepatitis patient. You may design any protocol? I am ready.
This is not how it works. You have come up with an extraordinary claim, and you must also provide a protocol for discussion. You, not we, know how this healing method works, so it is more natural that you tell us how to test it.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Dr. MAS: Dear Moderator, who told you about this “finale”. Why are you applying Avogadro's law here? And what is the hitch in not applying “probability law”? Somebody told you about Avogadro's law and you blindly started writing comments that the dilution does not contain any molecule in above 18c potency and never thought that there are so many chemistry rules which can be applied other than Avogadro's law.

In fact there aren't. Chemistry requires something to be present for you to be able to chemistry with.


First you declare and verify on this forum that according to you “the paranormal part of homeopathy is, its dilution has no molecule in above 30c potency” then a protocol can be built to prove that “yes”, the molecules are present in 31c potency. Ok come forward and verify your statement. ;) [/B]

Any remedy of higher potency than 12C or 24X will have a mean concentration of less than one molecule per remedy. Is there any part of this sentance you do not understand?
 
"Still I have not followed what exactly the paranormal in homeopathy is."

Dr MAS, Pararnormal simply means beyond normal scientific explanation. As far as I am aware, there is no broadly accepted definition of how Homeopathy works (if it works). Therefore, it's quite logical to refer to it as paranormal.

You said the following in a previous reply "I can explain the scientific nature of use of Nat Sulph in Hepatitis patient".

Please go ahead!
 
PMC said: When you say "Nat Sulph 200", do you mean Sodium Sulphate solution diluted 200 times? If so, then yes, this cannot be explained by currenty understood scientific principles and could quite easily be categorised as paranormal.



Dr. MAS: Dr. MAS: OK, you confirmed, that part of homeopathy is paranormal… Hammm atlast you came at ONE point agenda. Do ask to other member, are they agree with you?

I am ready to explain the scientific nature of homeopathic medicinal effect in the body? Natrum Sulph was written just for an example.

Before I would like to start, I would like to know who are you? Where are you located? What is your qualification? What is your professional field? How much experience do you have? What is phone number? So that I could guess that whether you can understand what I am going to write? Or it will be wasted of time.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Before I would like to start, I would like to know who are you? Where are you located? What is your qualification? What is your professional field? How much experience do you have? What is phone number? So that I could guess that whether you can understand what I am going to write? Or it will be wasted of time.
:dl:
You certainly do not want to present your arguments! And we thought you were serious!
:tr:
 
pmckean said: You said the following in a previous reply "I can explain the scientific nature of use of Nat Sulph in Hepatitis patient". Please go ahead!

Dr. MAS: I am ready; you have to qualify preliminary criteria before I explain further? Do you agree?
 

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