One Million Rupees Offer to prove "Homeopathy is Paranormal"

[Zep]

Is there some way we could do this at the same time we are also refuting all the evidence for the afterlife? If so, we could win Zammit's prize, too.

I know it may sound odd to combine a proof that something is paranormal with a proof that a humongous pile of evidence is all bogus, but somehow it just feels possible to me. There's a synergy here. Don't you think?

~~ Paul

Leave Zammit to me... I have plans!

 

[EdipisReks]

Sorry, Epi, no go. You're making too much sense.

damn, i tried my best not even with the ewoks, and the mucus earringing....?

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

You are off with the fairies again. In this thread, you were asked for details of a test that can detect the "active " ingredient in a homeopathic preparation at the dilutions mentioned. Please provide the information requested.

Frankly, I don't think such a test exists, because it would be trying to detect something that doesn't exist.

But you are welcome to prove me wrong.

If you can.

Just dissolve some concentrated colour in water or just take some strong smelling solution & put these in clear glass bottles. After some time empty the bottles & wash. Just see whether glass looks somewhat cloured or smell something.

Just test remedies & bottles, for presence of molecules of active substances in any remedy or in any bottle in which potentisation was done. Does science not yet has this testing technology? Homeopathy shows this presence 'as effect of remedies'.

 

[Jocce]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Just dissolve some concentrated colour in water or just take some strong smelling solution & put these in clear glass bottles. After some time empty the bottles & wash. Just see whether glass looks somewhat cloured or smell something.

Just test remedies & bottles, for presence of molecules of active substances in any remedy or in any bottle in which potentisation was done. Does science not yet has this testing technology? Homeopathy shows this presence 'as effect of remedies'.

Ok, so if the stuff sticks to the surface of the glass bottle and you transfer one drop from the fluid inside the bottle then the starting substance dissapears even quicker. Maybe there's no trace left after 8C then? What are you trying to say kumar?

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Just dissolve some concentrated colour in water or just take some strong smelling solution & put these in clear glass bottles. After some time empty the bottles & wash. Just see whether glass looks somewhat cloured or smell something.

Kumar, do you never drink something out of a reusable bottle? Do you use a new cup each time you drink tea? Do you throw away a dinner-plate if food has been left on it and become putrid?

No?

No, you wash it (or somebody washes it for you ). Does it become clean when properly washed? Yes, it does; you can fill a glass vial with monkey-[feacal matter] (edited to defeat nanny-bot) and leave it in a warm place for a month ( ), and it can be made absolutely clean and sterile again.

Just test remedies & bottles, for presence of molecules of active substances in any remedy or in any bottle in which potentisation was done. Does science not yet has this testing technology?

Of course science has. There are several methods; purity of solvents and compounds is an important parameter, not only in research, but in industry.

Homeopathy shows this presence 'as effect of remedies'.

No, it does not. NOBODY, not even homeopaths, have been able to provide proof for "effect of remedies". Don't you understand ANYTHING of these debates? This is exactly the whole point: Nobody can show that remedies work .

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Hehehe, trust Kumar to derail even a fellow believer's thread .

So to get back on trail (not that I expect MAS to return with anything useful):

There are (only) two things wrong with the "Dr. MAS Challenge".

1) Given the definition of paranormal as "Something for which no rational explanation can be given", the challenge requires people to prove a negative. This is a formal fallacy.

2) It is based on a straw-man. Skeptics do NOT claim that homeopathy works in paranormal ways. Skeptics claim that homeopathy does not work at all. The corollary from this is that if somebody can show some effect, it must be paranormal, hence eligible for the JREF challenge.

Hans

 

[Kumar]

Mr.Hans,

I just want to know if glass of bottle has nom porosity or not? How concentrated colours remained on toe nails, hair dyes etc remain there for months? How insects are able to climb on plain verticle glass, high enough? Is it by porosity of glass? How paint coating exist on glass as of mirror?

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Just dissolve some concentrated colour in water or just take some strong smelling solution & put these in clear glass bottles. After some time empty the bottles & wash. Just see whether glass looks somewhat cloured or smell something.

Just test remedies & bottles, for presence of molecules of active substances in any remedy or in any bottle in which potentisation was done. Does science not yet has this testing technology? Homeopathy shows this presence 'as effect of remedies'.

Kumar, preparing a concentrated solution and putting it in a bottle is not the same thing as preparing a homeopathic remedy, as far as I know. I asked for a test that will show that molecules from the original tincture are present in high dilution homeopathic remedies. Please provide a test protocol for this, with references if possible. Not a way of demonstrating whether things can stick to glass.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mr.Hans,

I just want to know if glass of bottle has nom porosity or not? How concentrated colours remained on toe nails, hair dyes etc remain there for months? How insects are able to climb on plain verticle glass, high enough? Is it by porosity of glass? How paint coating exist on glass as of mirror?

No the glass does not have porosity, but it has microscropic irregularities. No, this does not explain homeopathy.

Nails, hair?? What has that to do with anything? Nails and hair do have porous surfaces.

Kumar, you might argue that some odd molecule might stick to the surface of a vial and stay there through several potentizing steps, but that does not explain homeopathy, quite the ocntrary, in fact, because so do impurities and other stuff. There is no such thing as "pure water". If you make a sufficiently thorough analysis of a remedy, you will find lots of molecules in there (apart from the carrier), some of them might even be from the crude substance (more likely than not carried over by sloppy lab practice ). However, a few molecules of ANYTHING have no effect on the body.

What do you think is in the water you drink? Or the air you breathe? There a billions of molecules of thousands of different substances there, some of which you certainly don't wanna know about.

Now, Kumar this is a test. You go and scream "Mr. Hans confirmed that there are molecules of remedy in high potencies, and this can be how it works", and I'm gonna be nasty with you. So read very carefully.


Hans

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Kumar, preparing a concentrated solution and putting it in a bottle is not the same thing as preparing a homeopathic remedy, as far as I know. I asked for a test that will show that molecules from the original tincture are present in high dilution homeopathic remedies. Please provide a test protocol for this, with references if possible. Not a way of demonstrating whether things can stick to glass.

You are not understanding. I mean that some of raw remedy substance stick/embed on glass of glass bottle alike painting a glass & some molecules of it, come out slowly in every potency.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

You are not understanding. I mean that some of raw remedy substance stick/embed on glass of glass bottle alike painting a glass & some molecules of it, come out slowly in every potency.

And what if it does? Kumar, you need to think through the logical implications of all your theories. Are you now claiming that homeopathic remedies are just very very very diluted substances?

--Because if yes, I can tell you that the normal effect of substances on the body is dose-related. Very very very diluted substances do not have any effect on thebody. And what happend to the magic potentization? How do you NOW distinguish between random leftover molecules of remedy, and all the OTHER random leftover molecules that are in there?

Remember? You wee looking for some effect that could enhance and purify the remedy? That could somehow select the remedy among all the other impurities?

Hans

 

[Dr. MAS]

So to get back on trail (not that I expect MAS to return with anything useful): (hans)

The opinion I have for you and others. I asked a very simple question, so that I could move forward but did not get reasonable reply. I am still here. And offered you one million rupeees with court stamp papers fee. I am not among those who will run away. If you can catch me than the filed is wide open to win the prize.

 

[MRC_Hans]

The opinion I have for you and others. I asked a very simple question, so that I could move forward but did not get reasonable reply. I am still here. And offered you one million rupeees with court stamp papers fee. I am not among those who will run away. If you can catch me than the filed is wide open to win the prize.

Well, let's move forward, then. I'll answer your question (again):

1) Skeptics do not claim that the effect of homeopathy is paranormal. We claim that it is non-existent.

2) Since it is non-existent, the JREF has deemed that it is eligible for the paranormal challenge.

3) Your challenge would require the contender to prove a negative.

That should do it.

Now, you said you could explain how homeopathy works. When do you start?

Hans

 

[CFLarsen]

The opinion I have for you and others. I asked a very simple question, so that I could move forward but did not get reasonable reply. I am still here. And offered you one million rupeees with court stamp papers fee. I am not among those who will run away. If you can catch me than the filed is wide open to win the prize.

A couple of questions, if you don't mind. I'm sorry if they have been answered elsewhere, so indulge me.

• Is this definition of "paranormal" acceptable:
  
  

  "An event or perception is said to be paranormal if it involves forces or agencies that are beyond scientific explanation."
  SkepDic.com

• If not, can you provide us with the appropriate definition of "paranormal"?
  
• Who decides if the condition has been met?
  
• Can you describe a scenario where the money will be won?
  
• Can you provide evidence that the money is there?
  
• How is the money payable?

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

And what if it does? Kumar, you need to think through the logical implications of all your theories. Are you now claiming that homeopathic remedies are just very very very diluted substances?

--Because if yes, I can tell you that the normal effect of substances on the body is dose-related. Very very very diluted substances do not have any effect on thebody. And what happend to the magic potentization? How do you NOW distinguish between random leftover molecules of remedy, and all the OTHER random leftover molecules that are in there?

Remember? You wee looking for some effect that could enhance and purify the remedy? That could somehow select the remedy among all the other impurities?

Hans

Mountain may not effect but small stone can, also a needle or a big iron piece.

Keeping energetic effects pending yet to be understood by science, I am indicating molecular presense. Concentated/large molecule need digestion----to reach to nervous system, but single/very diluted substance can be absorbed in mouth & directly reach to nerve endings--so can show immediate results. You just understand "Cephalic phase effect".

 

[Kumar]

The opinion I have for you and others. I asked a very simple question, so that I could move forward but did not get reasonable reply. I am still here. And offered you one million rupeees with court stamp papers fee. I am not among those who will run away. If you can catch me than the filed is wide open to win the prize.

Dr. Mas,

If people here do not accept molecular presense & effects by very very diluted substance, probably but mostly, I may WIN the prize. Keep the cash ready.

 

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

You are not understanding. I mean that some of raw remedy substance stick/embed on glass of glass bottle alike painting a glass & some molecules of it, come out slowly in every potency.

OK, Kumar, I'll give you a little hint:
To demonstrate the presence of the active ingredient in a high-dilution homeopathic remedy, you need to carry out a test on the homeopathic remedy in question. Discussing whether the substance can stick to glass, or suggesting that homeopathic remedies work because they're incompetently prepared, does not address the question.

 

[Jeff Corey]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

... You just understand "Cephalic phase effect".

Well, finally a breakthrough in comprehension. The well known "cephalic phase effect". "Cephalic" referring to the head and the chemical meaning of "phase" being a discrete
homogenous part of a material system that is separable from the rest, as is ice from water. So the effect is to separate the head from the rest of the system, which includes the anus.
Finally, it all becomes clear.

 

[steenkh]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

You are not understanding. I mean that some of raw remedy substance stick/embed on glass of glass bottle alike painting a glass & some molecules of it, come out slowly in every potency.

I have said this before, but it seems worth repeating:
If homoeopathic "healing" is dependent on leftover remedy molecules in the glass, then why do the homoeopaths perform so many potentisations? That would only reduce the chance of bad quality control having a positive benefit. In other words, if the effect were created by actual molecules present in the solutions, why dilute them further? You could also go straight to the "very few molecules left"-stage: take a glass where the mother tincture has been almost cleaned out, fill in new water, and, presto! a new homoeopathic remedy is created!

Kumar's argument also opens up for remedies to be mixed if the first remedy still has leftover molecules in the glass pores when the second is prepared.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Mountain may not effect but small stone can, also a needle or a big iron piece.

Nonsense.

Keeping energetic effects pending yet to be understood by science,

What effects?

I am indicating molecular presense.

Not any significant presense.

Concentated/large molecule need digestion----to reach to nervous system, but single/very diluted substance can be absorbed in mouth & directly reach to nerve endings--so can show immediate results.

Total nonsense. Kumar, I did suspect that you beieve that molecules get smaller on dilution. Well, I have news for you: They don't.

You just understand "Cephalic phase effect".

Nonsense.

CPE, indeed. You have come full circle. That nonsense was shredded for you a year ago.

Hans