One Million Rupees Offer to prove "Homeopathy is Paranormal"

[Mojo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: One Million Rupees Offer to prove "Homeopathy is Paranorm

You are the one making claims here. Please show us the "most basic tests" that demonstrate that there is any of the "active" substance left in homeopathic remedies of above 12C or 24X. What's that? You can't find any? Oh dear...

Actually, Kumar, I'll make it a little easier for you. Just show us some basic tests that show that a homeopathic preparation of any remedy at these sort of dilutions is in any way different from the pure solvent, or from preparations of other remedies at the same dilutions.

What's the matter? Still can't find any?

 

[Kumar]

Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Actually, Kumar, I'll make it a little easier for you. Just show us some basic tests that show that a homeopathic preparation of any remedy at these sort of dilutions is in any way different from the pure solvent, or from preparations of other remedies at the same dilutions.

What's the matter? Still can't find any?

Just paint a bottle inside or stick something to its inner walls or embed any homeopathic starting material(silica in glass have absorbing properties) in the inner walls of bottle/containers/grinding equipment used in triturations, then shake/grind with force/rinse/wash any number of times or continue potentization process in same bottle.....& then look if molecular presence is there in ever potency or not. It looks while experiancing 'memory of water, same container was used, but while testing different containers were used for different dilutions--so test might had failed. Now what about Avogdro law or otherwise. Sorry, but "secret" may be this only. I previously indicated accordingly & in other language not indonasian).

Holi colours/ Heena colours/hair dyeings---on skin, nails & hair are embeded/absorbed(silica)--& go very slowly on washing/rubbing(succussion/mixing water, triturating) etc. Still some colour goes means some molecules leave on every wash/potentization---means molecular presence in every potency.

Sorry I am in bit hurry.

Best wishes to all for this. May GOD helps.

 

[steenkh]

Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Just paint a bottle inside or stick something to its inner walls or embed any homeopathic starting material(silica in glass have absorbing properties) in the inner walls of bottle/containers/grinding equipment used in triturations, then shake/grind with force/rinse/wash any number of times or continue potentization process in same bottle.....& then look if molecular presence is there in ever potency or not. It looks while experiancing 'memory of water, same container was used, but while testing different containers were used for different dilutions--so test might had failed. Now what about Avogdro law or otherwise. Sorry, but "secret" may be this only. I previously indicated accordingly & in other language not indonasian).

This has been covered before, and the answer is that originally, Hahnemann used a new clean glass for every "potentization". So, you are now implying that Hahnemann's remedies did not work?

 

[-42-]

As I recall, one of the things some of the skeptics have done is commit homeopathic suicide. They drank deadly poisons in homeopathic dilutions, and of course, they died horribly... no wait... that's not quite right. Oh yes. Here it is. There were no adverse effects.

Randi ate a box of homeo sleeping pills.

http://www.str.com.br/English/Res/poof.htm


As far as the poison-drinking ones, don't the homeopaths say that would be good for you with the poison thing? So maybe they ended up proving it! They're now immune to poison 4 life.

 

[Kumar]

I told, ignorances, misses, weakness--in understandigs can be there in every system. Where it is instruced, different bottles are to be used after some initial potencies(below 12C/24X). Can you understand how much bottles will be required. How triturating can be posible by taking so many equipments for grinding/triturating. I/others tried best, but storing energy/informatin on energy level in remedies could not be scientifically justified. Moreover, unless somewhat effect alike molecular effect is there, remedies can't be justified. I don't feel/see other way? Just put nail polish/ conentrated colour on your toe nails & wash 1000 times with shop/shampoo or rub forcefully. See all colour goes or not--however some will go each time---mean alike molecular transfer in each potency.

 

[steenkh]

Moreover, unless somewhat effect alike molecular effect is there, remedies can't be justified.

You are damn right there!

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Just paint a bottle inside or stick something to its inner walls or embed any homeopathic starting material(silica in glass have absorbing properties) in the inner walls of bottle/containers/grinding equipment used in triturations, then shake/grind with force/rinse/wash any number of times or continue potentization process in same bottle.....& then look if molecular presence is there in ever potency or not. It looks while experiancing 'memory of water, same container was used, but while testing different containers were used for different dilutions--so test might had failed. Now what about Avogdro law or otherwise. Sorry, but "secret" may be this only. I previously indicated accordingly & in other language not indonasian).

Holi colours/ Heena colours/hair dyeings---on skin, nails & hair are embeded/absorbed(silica)--& go very slowly on washing/rubbing(succussion/mixing water, triturating) etc. Still some colour goes means some molecules leave on every wash/potentization---means molecular presence in every potency.

Kumar, that is exactly what I posted to you in the other thread! And I explained why it had nothing to do with the claims of homoeopathy, because, as Steenkh confirms, this is not how classical homoeopathic remedies are produced. Although Hahnemann did give his approval to the Korsakov method (which is much as you describe), it was a later development, and intended mainly for emergency use. Truly classical homoeopaths insist on using new clean glassware for every step. So, if your theory about remedies sticking to the glass were true (which in fact it isn't), you would run out of material much more quickly than in the calculations, because you are throwing most of it away with the glassware every time!

To echo Steenkh, are you trying to say that Hahnemann's remedies didn't work? (Well, actually, they didn't, but I'm not really expecting you to recognise that!)

Not only that, what you postulate simply doesn't make sense. You are implying that homoeopathic remedies work because there is still some ordinary material present in them. So, why go to all the trouble of all that diluting then? Why not just figure out the optimum concentration and make up the solution directly?

This would be simple, normal, pharmacology, although at the micro-dose level. No homoeopath at all believes homoeopathy works like that. So if that was your big secret, sorry, wrong number.

Rolfe.

 

[flume]

Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

Originally posted by Rolfe You are implying that homoeopathic remedies work because there is still some ordinary material present in them. So, why go to all the trouble of all that diluting then? Why not just figure out the optimum concentration and make up the solution directly?

This would be simple, normal, pharmacology, although at the micro-dose level. No homoeopath at all believes homoeopathy works like that. So if that was your big secret, sorry, wrong number.

I think you're brushing off Kumar's response too fast. I don't think he's talking about classical homeopathy but the effects of currently prepared remedies and how they seem to affect people he knows. Clearly for some remedies, it wouldn't make any difference. But is it possible that there are some remedies that could be having some effect at lower potencies due to poor quality control in the production which leaves a residue of the actual drug?

(I haven't thought this through though, so the dilution factor might still rule it out. But Kumar gets razzed enough for his illogical ideas - give him credit for recognizing this one as a possibility.)

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

But is it possible that there are some remedies that could be having some effect at lower potencies due to poor quality control in the production which leaves a residue of the actual drug?

I can't see it.

First, the dilutions they are talking about are so astronomical that any mistake enough to leave significant residue would be a hugely gross error which would only happen very very rarely. Think about it. 30C is only a moderate potency. And yet, as we've seen, this is less than one molecule in a positively staggering amount of solvent. Literally astronomical (the exact amount depends on the exact composition of the mother tincture, which is never specified, but it is getting on for light years cubed). Then they take a drop of this, maybe 0.1 or 0.05 ml, and drop it on a sugar pill, and let it evaporate. There's no way a mistake sufficient to produce real remedy presence is going to happen often enough to give anyone the systematic impression that homoeopathy works.

Remember that you do need quite a lot of molecules to have a significant effect on the body. I can measure some hormones at the femtomolar level, but that is only half way to Avogadro's limit in terms of diluting cycles. Much beyond that, you're into not a great deal happening. This hypothetical stray molecule or two we keep talking about couldn't actually do diddly-squat even if it existed.

Bad quality control is behind all these grandiose claims? I don't think so.

Then again, even if that were possible, how come pharmacology hasn't noticed these great powers of these random herbs and rubber and slate and salt and so on? If even the occasional contaminated remedy could do anything, I think it might be something that we already knew about. And then again, what do you do about "like cures like"? I can't see any way to fit this into the contamination idea.

No, I think if there's anything theoretically sensible in Kumar's idea, it also has to combine a magic effect of all the shaking and washing of the remedy. Which is as woo as all the rest of it.

But anyway, since the original theory was devised without the use of the Korsakov method, homoeopathic remedies as produced in the best "pharmacies" don't use the Korsakov method, and they assure us that their process control is impeccable and their remedies "work", no dice.

Rolfe.

 

[Patricio Elicer]

******** In the end, it was decided to offer One Million Rupees to those who will prove that “Homeopathy is paranormal”,

Mr. Mas, I'm surprised that someone like you, with so many badges and academic background, does not understand the basics of logic. What you are asking for is that someone proves that homeopathy is not normal. This is impossible to begin with, not only because you are asking to prove a negative, but also because no one has been able to prove that homeopathy works in the first place.

Do you pretend to claim that since no one is able to prove that homeopathy is paranormal, then it must be normal or true?

The "Million Ruppes Challenge" is utter nonsense. I suggest you educate yourself on the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy.

Read this.

Edited to add the URL

 

[Rolfe]

OK, I've got the killer claim to the million rupees. This from Dr. Mas's other thread.

Originally posted by Dr. MAS
Dr. MAS: I only claim, we can heal patients (curable or incurable) by grace of Allah (God) and with the help of homeopathic medicines as a source.

Game. Set. Match. Tournament.

Or has God somehow stopped being paranormal?

No, Patricio! I WANT MY MONEY!!! Where do I apply?

This challenge only depends on Dr. Mas agreeing what "paranormal" means. Once he has agreed that, we only have to show that homoeopathy fulfils the criteria.

He has already stated that homoeopathy requires God's help. And I cannot see how any possible definition of "paranormal" cannot include divine intervention.

So I claim the prize.

Rolfe.

 

[drkitten]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

I can't see it.

That's not an auspicious start. Where I come from, we call that "argument from ignorance."

First, the dilutions they are talking about are so astronomical that any mistake enough to leave significant residue would be a hugely gross error which would only happen very very rarely. Think about it. 30C is only a moderate potency. And yet, as we've seen, this is less than one molecule in a positively staggering amount of solvent. Literally astronomical (the exact amount depends on the exact composition of the mother tincture, which is never specified, but it is getting on for light years cubed). Then they take a drop of this, maybe 0.1 or 0.05 ml, and drop it on a sugar pill, and let it evaporate. There's no way a mistake sufficient to produce real remedy presence is going to happen often enough to give anyone the systematic impression that homoeopathy works.

I think we could work this out as a Fermi problem and get some numbers to support this. If I assume that the lab technique is sufficiently poor that the dilution only produces a ten-fold instead of a hundred-fold dilution, then our hypothetical 30C solution would "really" be a 30X solution, yes?

Which is still ultra-molar -- one molecule left per million litres of stock solvent, or something like one billionth of a molecule per sugar pill.

Kumar, just how bad can the lab technique be? Would homeopaths notice if ten percent of the material didn't dissolve but instead stuck to the wall of the container?

 

[Patricio Elicer]

No, Patricio! I WANT MY MONEY!!! Where do I apply?

This challenge only depends on Dr. Mas agreeing what "paranormal" means. Once he has agreed that, we only have to show that homoeopathy fulfils the criteria.

Oops, Rolfe!. I'm sorry I spoiled it. Anyway, I think we'll need someone with paranormal powers to help you and Dr. Mas to come to an agreement on what "paranormal" means .

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

That's not an auspicious start. Where I come from, we call that "argument from ignorance."

Strange. Most of the rest of the planet would call it argument from incerdulity. However as this is not used as the argument it is not a logical fallacy.

 

[patchbunny]

Kumar, here’s a simple way of looking at homeopathic remedies.

Carbon monoxide is quite deadly, as CO molecules bond more readily with our hemoglobin than does oxygen, which kills you as your body is no longer getting the oxygen it needs. However, there are levels of CO that are dangerous, and there are levels that are not.

If we have a room with a CO concentration of 13000 parts per million, the room will kill you in a few minutes. But if we treat a CO/air mix like we would a homeopathic solution, that room would be safe to enter for several hours after just one dilution (128 ppm), and after two dilutions you would get no ill effects (1.28 ppm). Keep this up and very quickly you’ll get air with less CO in it than you’ll find in nature.

Medicines function the same way. If I have a headache, and I take a mixture that has 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001 g of aspirin, I’m not going to get an effect, as there’s not enough of the substance to interact with my body. Heck, let’s be generous – they were sloppy with their mix and I’ve got a solution with 0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001 g aspirin. It’s still not going to do anything. The substance doesn’t enter your body and say “Oh, look, I’m in a human! He’s cured!” The molecules must interact with other molecules in the body to produce an effect, just as CO interacts with hemoglobin, and there must be certain levels present for an effect to occur.

In the US, if there are chemicals in your work area, you’ll have binders with Material Safety Data Sheets. These documents describe the chemicals, their properties, and how they’re dangerous. They will often list harmful or fatal doses of the chemical in parts per million. Substance A may have a lethal limit of 3,000 ppm, a harmful limit of 1,200 ppm, and a safe limit of 25 ppm.

Ask yourself – why is the substance safer at lower concentrations, when under homeopathic logic it’s the opposite, when in both cases you’re describing the same thing – the effect of a substance upon your body. Arsenic is safe at low concentrations because there’s too little present to have an effect. Cyanide is safe at low concentrations because there’s too little present to have an effect. Aspirin is useless is safe at low concentrations because there’s too little present to have an effect.

You’re fighting for the presence of trace amounts, not realizing that the trace amounts are meaningless.

And if I’ve completely muffed it, let's all move right along to the next post.

--Patch

 

[Rolfe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

That's not an auspicious start. Where I come from, we call that "argument from ignorance."

No, where I come from it is intended to imply that you didn't express your argument sufficiently well for me to immediately agree with you.

I think we could work this out as a Fermi problem and get some numbers to support this. If I assume that the lab technique is sufficiently poor that the dilution only produces a ten-fold instead of a hundred-fold dilution, then our hypothetical 30C solution would "really" be a 30X solution, yes?

Which is still ultra-molar -- one molecule left per million litres of stock solvent, or something like one billionth of a molecule per sugar pill.

Kumar, just how bad can the lab technique be? Would homeopaths notice if ten percent of the material didn't dissolve but instead stuck to the wall of the container?

Well, once you've worked it out, come and explain it to me. And explain how it happens all the time, so often that all their remedies seem to "work", even the ones that come from labs with all these ISO-whatever accreditations that says they're doing the process correctly.

Explain how Hahnemann himself was so bad at diluting that what he was observing was simply the effects of residual molecules.

And explain how normal pharmacologists haven't noticed this prefectly ordinary property of all these common substances that are used in remedies. Remember, we're talking miracle cures here, including a claim that common salt cures cancer.

And explain how this goes on working with the 200C remedies, and the M potencies which are simply jaw-dropping dilute, and in such a way as to give the impression that the more you dilute, the more medically powerful the preparation is.

Oh, and explain how any of this is likely to fit in with the theory that "like cures like".

When you're ready.

Rolfe.

 

[Kumar]

Thanks foryour valued comments. Whether some molecules can effect or not effect is a secondary issue. We may have to look it in sense of their direct effects through our prime five senses or via nervous system alike cephalic effect. But the prime issue is ,whether molecular presence can be there or not in every potency due to the secret/science as I indicated? Just forget whatever is in homeopathic theory. Mostly, no one may be knowing about it even while 'memory of water' experianced/tested or anyone made homeopathic remedy, still effect may be only observed/found due ti it. Just test molecular presence in bottle/container/equipments & in homeopathic remedies prepared using single mean. TRs being made in equipmens--which can't be always changed--looks therefore mostly effective to me.

 

[Kumar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Science/secret/trick of homeopathy/TRS

I can't see it.

First, the dilutions they are talking about are so astronomical that any mistake enough to leave significant residue would be a hugely gross error which would only happen very very rarely. Think about it. 30C is only a moderate potency. And yet, as we've seen, this is less than one molecule in a positively staggering amount of solvent. Literally astronomical (the exact amount depends on the exact composition of the mother tincture, which is never specified, but it is getting on for light years cubed). Then they take a drop of this, maybe 0.1 or 0.05 ml, and drop it on a sugar pill, and let it evaporate. There's no way a mistake sufficient to produce real remedy presence is going to happen often enough to give anyone the systematic impression that homoeopathy works.

Remember that you do need quite a lot of molecules to have a significant effect on the body. I can measure some hormones at the femtomolar level, but that is only half way to Avogadro's limit in terms of diluting cycles. Much beyond that, you're into not a great deal happening. This hypothetical stray molecule or two we keep talking about couldn't actually do diddly-squat even if it existed.

Bad quality control is behind all these grandiose claims? I don't think so.

Then again, even if that were possible, how come pharmacology hasn't noticed these great powers of these random herbs and rubber and slate and salt and so on? If even the occasional contaminated remedy could do anything, I think it might be something that we already knew about. And then again, what do you do about "like cures like"? I can't see any way to fit this into the contamination idea.

No, I think if there's anything theoretically sensible in Kumar's idea, it also has to combine a magic effect of all the shaking and washing of the remedy. Which is as woo as all the rest of it.

But anyway, since the original theory was devised without the use of the Korsakov method, homoeopathic remedies as produced in the best "pharmacies" don't use the Korsakov method, and they assure us that their process control is impeccable and their remedies "work", no dice.

Rolfe.

Somewhere somthing may be lacking. Whether Dr.H used below 24C/12X potencies(with molecular presense) in most of his experiments, observeed the effects & mentioned accordingly OR he also used K method for higher potencies OR if he could get real results by using higher H potencies or placebo AND whether he was knowing science of remedies as per this concept or not---is to be thought.

KORSAKOV METHOD
Dr. Korsakoff (or Korsakov, as the spelling varies) also, for practical reasons, developed a new method of producing dilutions. Whereas Hahnemann used a new vial for each dilution, Korsakoff simply emptied the vial in use and added 99 parts of water/alcohol to produce the next dilution. Observation had convinced him that at least one drop equivalent of the solution remained in the vial when empty. Thus, adding the 99 drop sof water/alcohol to the same vial when "empty" had the same effect as taking a drop of the solution and putting it in a new vial with 99 drops of water/alcohol. This method was less expensive and time-consuming than Hahnemann's more precise and methodical approach, and worked particularly well in the higher potencies. For example, to produce a 200C potency by Hahnemann's method would require 200 vials, whereas this could be done with only one vial using the Korsakoff method. The latter also lends itself better to mechanization. Thus, the Korsakoff method is generally the one most used today, particularly and almost exclusively in the higher potencies (above 200C). To distinguish the two methods, the potencies made using the Hahnemannian approach are designated with an H (e.g., 3CH) and the potencies made by the Korsakoff method have the designation K (200CK or 200K).
http://www.heilkunst.com/dose.html
AND
http://www.sulisinstruments.com/korsakov.htm

It is indicated Korsakov Method is much in use today, so we can understand accordingly.

During Hahnemann's lifetime, he is known to have generally used only potencies up to 30C. But Farrington quotes Madame Hahnemann as saying that he had used the 200th and the 1000th when necessary. The 1000th, however, he seems to have used only once.
http://www.hpathy.com/philosophy/bhatia_potencyselection.asp

If you will read above link, you can notice Dr. Hahnemann's mostly used remedies with molecular presence. Lastly, I feel, he thought otherwise, in consideration of Korsakov Method. You can also notice, after H till today, higher potencies are much in use, can also be due to Korsakov Method. There are much confusions & contradictions in potency selection & effects--can also be due different homeopaths recomended & usrd H or K method in case of higher potencies.

 

[Kumar]

We can understand about potencies at; HAHNEMANN AND HIGH POTENCY.

Keeping energetic effects or part excitation issue pending for future rearch/thoughts, It now looks to me that " Homeopathic/TRs real effects of remedies in accordance with the active substance, can be materially possible;

1. In below or near somewhat 12C/24X potencies( I think LM can also be covered).

2. When KORSAKOV METHOD is used for potentising the remedies.

3. Triturations.

Potencies other than these, can still be under suspense and are open to future reasearch & discussions--as usual.

Just consider these as valid in science in view/reward of my hard work. Thanks.

 

[Rolfe]

If you're so keen on this idea, Kumar, maybe you'd better find out whether the remedy substances really do stick to glass in the face or repeated washings. (Hint - they don't.)

Rolfe.