One Million Rupees Offer to prove "Homeopathy is Paranormal"
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Originally posted by Kumar
Irrelavent. I am trying to check the molecular presence. If these are present, but how this small quantity can effect, is a secondary issue.
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Donks, What does it confirm? First settle among yourselves, whether molecular presence in all potencies, all dilutions or all triturations will be there or not--by adhesion to bottle glass or otherwise. Secondary issue can be easier for you to define/understand esp. with my clues/indications, probably but mostly. Something can be special on sensations via five senses & thinking/feeling--as looking at food or at smart young girl, pH changes, psychological effects, tastes...etc. Just try & tell.
Waiting.......
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Originally posted by Kumar
Irrelavent. I am trying to check the molecular presence. If these are present, but how this small quantity can effect, is a secondary issue.
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Jocce said:
Donks, What does it confirm? First settle among yourselves, whether molecular presence in all potencies, all dilutions or all triturations will be there or not--by adhesion to bottle glass or otherwise. Secondary issue can be easier for you to define/understand esp. with my clues/indications, probably but mostly. Something can be special on sensations via five senses & thinking/feeling--as looking at food or at smart young girl, pH changes, psychological effects, tastes...etc. Just try & tell.
Waiting.......
Badly Shaved Monkey
Anti-homeopathy illuminati member
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Ashles said:
[PatientSigh...]Oh dear, you really haven't caught on yet. They can use any method they like and it will work provided they say it is homeopathy. That's because "Homeopathy" is a magicke work. You guys are just so dumb. That's why when we say we tried homeopathy and it didn't work it's because we didn't say the magicke word or said it but didn't believe in it.
All clap hands now: "I do believe in Homeopathy. I do believe in Homeopathy"[/TinkerbellIsCured]
Wait no longer. Here goes the explanation for the nth time.Kumar said:
You start with 1 part active remedy, 99 parts water.
You take take 1 part out, and you put it in another container with 99 parts water. You do this again with 99 other containers.
From each of the 100 containers, you do the same, so you now have 10,000 containers. Statisticlly, each has 1 part active remedy, 9999 parts water.
You keep doing this, 100 times.
Are there molecules from the active remedy left? Yes. In some of the bottles. That's because they can't simply vanish. But most will have none.
And, you can't actually do this in real life. You'd have more bottles that you can fit in the Universe. So you have to throw out 99% of your remedy at each step.
That's what I accept.
Is it OK?
Now, on to your latest theory, "sticking to the walls."
DrDave alrady told you that it is extremely hard to get things to stick to glass. Did you accept it? No. Why? Because you can't accept theings that contradict your theories.
Is it OK?
What Jocce is doing is called a "hypothetical." He accepted your premise of "stuff sticking to the walls" so that you would move on and explain how that stuff actually has the desired effect. Then you Kumarized it into an acceptance that your theories are correct. This is exactly the attitude that makes your debating so dishonest. You took only that part that you liked, twisted it around to suit your motives, and dismissed the rest. What you should have done is explained how the active substance actually heals people. In his particular example, how arsenic would cure arsenic poinsoning.
Is it OK?
Best wishes
If you dare me to look at young girls (well, legal young girls, you know?Ceinwyn said:
), I'm all for it. But I will not adhese to bottle glass. That is illegal in most countries, 49 states and the District of Columbia. Only those West Virginians allow it.So it's otherwise, is it?Donks said:If you dare me to look at young girls (well, legal young girls, you know?
You are a madman. You defy the rules of nature. You are a MONSTER. A MONSTER I TELL YOU.
Also, BOTTLE GLASS. You know it, you love it. Fiend.
Donks said:
Exactly...babysteps.
Kumar, I wanna make this clear. I do NOT believe Homeopathy works. I do NOT believe there's anything of the crude substance left in final remedy. At least not significant amounts and definately not in all bottles. Hopeopathy is wishful thinking at the best. At worst it keeps people from getting proper, real treatment when they need it.
Another thing is that you really shouldn't take my word as proof for what the scientific community agree on, as you did when you agreed to accept the suggestion that there's stuff left in remedy. That was for discussion purposes only. Finding a common ground to proceed from instead of going around in circles.
Please bear in mind that I have no formal scientific background whatsoever. I do however work at the informationdepartment in one of europes oldest universities and spent some 10 years before that in business to business marketing within the lifescience industry. That has at least given me knowledge in chemistry, physics and biology that is a bit over the general populations level. At the very least, I recognize bull**** when I smell it.
I find your ideas hilarious and look forward to your every post. In the process I also add to my own knowledge thanks to the teriffic explanations that Rolfe and the other real scientists give. It also motivates me to go out and find knowledge on my own.
That being said...well...I guess...good luck with your delusions?
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Kumar, earlier in this thread I asked you to describe a test that can detect molecules of the original remedy in high-dilution homeopathic preparation. You have replied with a lot of rubbish about things sticking to glass.Kumar said:Thanks, molecular presence is confirmed by you & also by you on behalf of others. OK??
Remember, to demonstrate the presence of the active ingredient in a high-dilution homeopathic remedy, you need to carry out a test on the homeopathic remedy in question. Please try to understand this.
Discussing whether the substance can stick to glass, or suggesting that homeopathic remedies work because they're incompetently prepared, does not address the question.
So, please describe a test that can detect molecules from the mother tincture in high-dilution homeopathic preparations. If possible, please provide references.
Thank you.
Donks said:Wait no longer. Here goes the explanation for the nth time.
You start with 1 part active remedy, 99 parts water.
You take take 1 part out, and you put it in another container with 99 parts water. You do this again with 99 other containers.
From each of the 100 containers, you do the same, so you now have 10,000 containers. Statisticlly, each has 1 part active remedy, 9999 parts water.
You keep doing this, 100 times.
No, you haven't read all the posts seriously. I told, there are two mentods. H & K. Under H different bottles are suggested, Under K same bottle every time is suggested. Since Dr.Hahn. mostly used lower potencies, it could be possible that all those lower potencies OR most part of those may be having molecular presence transfered on one part solution transfer( note, not by bottles). Another K method, which is more practical esp. for higher potencies in which same bottle is used every time-- may transfer molecules adhered to glass alike paint(Pls consider all "adhesion mechnisms" not just porosity of glass). So just consider K method for this thought not H.
Are there molecules from the active remedy left? Yes. In some of the bottles. That's because they can't simply vanish. But most will have none.
And, you can't actually do this in real life. You'd have more bottles that you can fit in the Universe. So you have to throw out 99% of your remedy at each step.
That's what I accept.
Is it OK?
Just calculate again under above sense. It is natural, excess if any will be discarded.
Now, on to your latest theory, "sticking to the walls."
DrDave alrady told you that it is extremely hard to get things to stick to glass. Did you accept it? No. Why? Because you can't accept theings that contradict your theories.
Is it OK?
I don't know whether all mechnisams of "adhesion" are considered? I also can't say if mixing & shaking with carriers can do something for this sticking & release, due to somewhat hetrophillic effect(?).
What Jocce is doing is called a "hypothetical." He accepted your premise of "stuff sticking to the walls" so that you would move on and explain how that stuff actually has the desired effect. Then you Kumarized it into an acceptance that your theories are correct. This is exactly the attitude that makes your debating so dishonest. You took only that part that you liked, twisted it around to suit your motives, and dismissed the rest. What you should have done is explained how the active substance actually heals people. In his particular example, how arsenic would cure arsenic poinsoning.
Is it OK?
Pls avoid "assumptions" , "hypotheticals", mean all vauge aspects, when talking from science side.
Best wishes
Jocee,
"Please bear in mind that I have no formal scientific background whatsoever."
Thanks for updating. I can understand now. It is ok. As I told, Pls avoid "assumptions" , "hypotheticals", mean all vauge aspects, when advocating science or talking from science's side.
Blah blah blah. I was addressing molecular presence in homeopathy in general, not your latest theory.Kumar said:
You'll have to ask him He reported that he tried various chemicals, and that it was very hard to get anything to stick to glass. Even if somehow trituration managed to stick any and all active substances to glass (It does not), swishing water around would clean it, and by the 30th dilution I doubt you'd have anything but clean water.
HAHAHAHAHAH!
Kumar, so far you have ONLY supplied assumptions and hypotheticals. You have not once posted anything remotely scientific. You should know by know, if you want to do science, you have to follow a protocol. The standard one for testing things like homeopathy happens to be a DBPC trial. Those show no effect.
AND you still haven't responded to Jocce's hypothetical. Assume that this sticking does work. How do the remedies heal? If you want to say here "the law of similars" or some such nonsese, note that you have to provide evidence for your theories.
Badly Shaved Monkey
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Kumar said:
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Kumar, please describe the test you would use. Just saying "test bottle & remedies as per your system" is no good. Scientific theory says that there is none of the original tincture left in the preparation. All properly carried out scientific testing has indicated that there is none of the original tincture left in the preparation, and that the remedy is indistinguishable from the pure solvent used to prepare it.Kumar said:
Incidentally, the fact that you are still suggesting that testing the bottle could tell us something about what might be in the remedy indicates that you have totally failed to take on board what I have repeatedly told you: THE ONLY WAY TO TEST THE COMPOSITION OF A HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY IS TO CARRY OUT TESTS ON THE REMEDY ITSELF! Not tests on the bottle it was prepared in, the marble tiles on the floor or the horse you rode in on.
TEST THE REMEDY!
The method you describe, using dirty glassware to introduce contaminants at later stages of the process, would be regarded as clearly incompetent in any real science. The fact that you are unable to see this tells me something about you.
PLEASE DESCRIBE THE TEST YOU WOULD USE TO DETERMINE THE PRESENCE OF MOLECULES FROM THE ORIGINAL TINCTURE IN HIGH-DILUTION HOMEOPATHIC REMEDIES! If anyone has carried out the test and reported their results, please provide references.
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
RE-READ;
Pls avoid "assumptions" , "hypotheticals", mean all vauge aspects, when advocating science or talking from science's side. I am not pro.
Donks,
As above.
Then probably, part excitations, flying molecules, reflected effects, just carriers & contaminations effects, feeling/thinking alike effect
or otherwise will have to be thought/ researched. Many prople trying for science, you also try. Don't you have any idea, even hypothetical? Secondary issue about effect with traces can be pursued in science, when prime issue of information stored will be solved--about molecular or its traces presence OR/and its colours, shape/pattern/position/forces change.
Can it by, some change in shape/pattern/position/forces of remedy's or carrier's molecules on doing so much hard work by homeopaths during potentisation?
But I may not be able to pursue on enegy level as my energy looks to be exausted.
So, all the theories that have already been discussed and discarded. Wonderful.Originally posted by Kumar
Then probably, part excitations, flying molecules, reflected effects, just carriers & contaminations effects, feeling/thinking alike effect
Actually, I do. I did some research some months ago and found out exactly how homeopathy works, what the effects are, etc. Fascinating stuff.
More discarded theories.
Secondary issue about effect with traces can be pursued in science, when prime issue of information stored will be solved--about molecular or its traces presence OR/and its colours, shape/pattern/position/forces change.
Can it by, some change in shape/pattern/position/forces of remedy's or carrier's molecules on doing so much hard work by homeopaths during potentisation?