How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Thanks, HC - that's the situation I referred to in an earlier post, but I didn't know where to find the links. I love the way the writer classes Canada and Germany as "developing" countries which still give credence to homoeopathy.

Now, ARE ANY OF THE HOMOEOPATHS GOING TO EXPLAIN, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS? EVER? PRETTY PLEASE??

Rolfe.

Are you sure it works in 6, 12 and 18 dilution?

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

Dr. Qureshi has posted his research studies and proved that allopathic medicines were also got failed in controled studies.

Visit

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

 

[Rolfe]

Are you sure it works in 6, 12 and 18 dilution?

NO.

NEVER MIND ABOUT THAT.

YOU ARE SURE THAT IT WORKS.

SO.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS.

Rolfe.

 

[Non-Sense Homeopath]

NO.

NEVER MIND ABOUT THAT.

YOU ARE SURE THAT IT WORKS.

YES

SO.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS.



Rolfe.

FIRST EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES IT CANNOT WORK IN 6X, 12X ETC?

 

[Donks]

FIRST EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES IT CANNOT WORK IN 6X, 12X ETC?

"First prove a negative." Hmmm. Logic isn't part of the curriculum at homeo-school, is it?

 

[Rolfe]

FIRST EXPLAIN TO ME HOW DOES IT CANNOT WORK IN 6X, 12X ETC?

DO YOU AGREE THAT HOMOEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK AT 30C???

Rolfe.

 

[wahrheit]

NO.

NEVER MIND ABOUT THAT.

YOU ARE SURE THAT IT WORKS.

SO.

PLEASE EXPLAIN TO ME, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS, WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW HOMOEOPATHY WORKS.

Rolfe.

ROLFE, I AM SURPRISED TO SEE YOU MOCK HOMEOPATHS WITH A JAMMED CAPS LOCK KEY. THOUGH I UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION BEHIND IT; MAYBE IT HELPS MAKING YOUR QUESTIONS MORE PLAIN TO THEM. WE SHOULD LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED TO GET BEHIND THE SECRET OF HOMEOPATHY.

 

[Rolfe]

ROLFE, I AM SURPRISED TO SEE YOU MOCK HOMEOPATHS WITH A JAMMED CAPS LOCK KEY. THOUGH I UNDERSTAND THE INTENTION BEHIND IT; MAYBE IT HELPS MAKING YOUR QUESTIONS MORE PLAIN TO THEM. WE SHOULD LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED TO GET BEHIND THE SECRET OF HOMEOPATHY.

I have had the revelation that they cannot read lower-case type. This is why they never answer our questions! Indeed, perhaps they can only read even all-caps if the typing is very large, bold, and in a bright colour. Let us see.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

NON-SENSE HOMEOPATH. DO YOU AGREE THAT HOMOEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK AT 30C?

PLEASE EXPLAIN YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF HOW IT DOES WORK, IN SCIENTIFIC TERMS.

Rolfe.

 

[Dr. A Sheikh]

DO YOU AGREE THAT HOMOEOPATHY DOES NOT WORK AT 30C???

Rolfe.

It will depend upon the type of working you will explained to him whether it works or not in 12x etc

 

[geni]

It will depend upon the type of working you will explained to him whether it works or not in 12x etc

That does not answer the question.

 

[Mouthfire]

Dr. Qureshi has posted his research studies and proved that allopathic medicines were also got failed in controled studies.

Visit

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28&st=30

From the research study in question:

During my house job in homeopathic hospital, I with my few friends carried out the following experiment.

Although that was a homeopathic hospital, which was attached with, a homeopathic medical college but I decided to study control study on allopathic medicines. Seven patients were selected having UTI from out patient department. Ultrasound, x-rays and pathological tests were taken. The “URAXIN” medicine was selected for controlled study. This is the most widely used medicine in Pakistan.

This thread also provide evidence of use of URAXIN in Pakistan

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?...20&page=2&pp=10

On four out of seven patients (uraxin group “a”) , Uraxin was tried but for rest of the patient (placebo group “b”) only placebo of the same kind of tablets were given. It was noted that group “a” got cured earlier than group “b”. Group “b” was also got perfectly all right but took six to seven days more and suffered severe pain. The group “a” got relieved on the very first day, but took five days in improving the condition.

Hmmm... excuse me if I call BS on this. I work in the medical field, and I've never heard of "Uraxin". Furthermore, I cannot find a single reputable reference to what this medication is. The only reference that I can find is from a homeopathic medicine site:

http://www.otherhealth.com/showthread.php?t=2420&page=2&pp=10

where a Pakistani homeopath claims it is "a research antibiotic product used against infection of urethra". Aside from that, there are a few Vietnamese websites that seem to mention it, none of which I can decipher.

So, in short, the fact that Non-Sense Homeopath points this out as an "allopathic medicine" that failed a controlled study doesn't impress me. First of all, it's supposedly a research medicine, and secondly, it's "medication" that is limited to third-world countries, and likely no better than snake-oil.

Now... if you'd like, I could find references to various allopathic medications like Bactrim and Tequin, that HAVE been shown to adequetely treat urinary tract infections in reputable studies. I can dig those up for you... I'm sure you can't do so for homeopathic treatments....

 

[Mouthfire]

Actually, after reading Dr. Qureshi's post again, I just realized that he stated that the people who took Uraxin (group "a") actually recovered from their urinary tract infections faster than placebo group "b".

Which means, Non-Sense Homeopath, that Uraxin didn't fail the trial. It actually worked!

 

[SezMe]

[derail]

I nominate Rolfe for the:

POSTER DISPLAYING THE MOST PATIENCE OF THE YEAR AWARD

[/derail]

 

[Psiload]

[derail]

I nominate Rolfe for the:

POSTER DISPLAYING THE MOST PATIENCE OF THE YEAR AWARD

[/derail]

Here! Here!

Awarded in perpetuity.

The Golden Job figurine displayed proudly on her mantle.

 

[Homeo Man]

Actually, after reading Dr. Qureshi's post again, I just realized that he stated that the people who took Uraxin (group "a") actually recovered from their urinary tract infections faster than placebo group "b".

Which means, Non-Sense Homeopath, that Uraxin didn't fail the trial. It actually worked!

So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured.

 

[clarsct]

So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured.

I'm guessing that pillory was a coherent poster until he saw his one million and ninth of these types of posts.

This one really made my head hurt..I think I actually dropped an IQ point....

OK Here goes....

The people in group "b" did not get "cured". The suffered severe pain and were lucky enough to survive the infection. Group "a", who took the medicine, made a recovery much faster and experienced little pain.

Does the pain your vic...erm "patients" not matter to you? Do you care how fast they're cured? Or are you just greedy enough not to care? As long as the blasted money comes in, isn't it all the same to you?

By posting such inanity, you have exposed your lack of empathy for your fellow man, which I find disgusting. I will likely not post here again.

*mutters* I apologize for the Ad Hom..but my bile could no longer be contained....

 

[Mojo]

By posting such inanity, you have exposed your lack of empathy for your fellow man, which I find disgusting.

He's also exposed his total lack of understanding of what constitutes a successful treatment.

BTW, I notice in that thread that not only has someone registered an account under the name "Mojo", but there's also a "Guest_Mojo" posting. That's not me either. As stated previously, if I register over there, it will be under our other cat's name.

 

[Rolfe]

It will depend upon the type of working you will explained to him whether it works or not in 12x etc

I apologise for repeating myself. There are two threads (at least) about exactly the same topic, and I can't see any way to make the homoeopaths stick to one of them.

Well, if we're actually going to address this, then no, as a blanket statement, I do not believe that "it works" at 6X or 12X or any other X come to that.

Why not?

Because the whole assumption that "like cures like" is a pack of nonsense based on a misunderstanding.

Little homoeopathic history lesson.

Samuel Hahnemann was a German physician living at the end of the 18th century. He had a job translating medical texts into German. One of the books he was given to translate was the Materia Medica of William Cullen, a very famous professor at Glasgow University. In this book Cullen stated (correctly) that the bark of the cinchona tree was an effective treatment for malaria. He also speculated (incorrectly) that the reason for the efficacy was that the bark had an astringent action on the stomach.

Hahnemann thought about this, and realised (correctly) that this explanation was unlikely, because there were a number of other things with an even more astringent action on the stomach which didn't do a blind bit of good for malaria. He then decided to get some of the bark and see if he could figure it out. He took some himself, and it made him feel unwell. He believed that the symptoms he was experiencing were similar to those of malaria. He tried this several times, and indeed, the effect was reproducible.

However, what he failed to do was to find out if the effect also happened to other people. In fact it doesn't. The vast majority of people, on taking cinchona bark, will not experience what Hahnemann experienced. It appears that he suffered an idiosyncratic, probably allergic, reaction to something in the bark.

Nevertheless, Hahnemenn concluded from this observation that the reason that cinchona bark cures malaria is that it produces malarial symptoms in healthy people. Wrong on two counts. First, as I said, cinchona bark doesn't produce malarial symptoms in the vast majority of healthy people. Second, the reason cinchona bark cures malaria is that it contains a high concentration of quinine, which kills the Plasmodium protozoan which causes malaria.

"Like cures like" is an expression of a very ancient way of thinking called "sympathetic magic". It can be found running through the thinking and practice of almost all primitive peoples, and indeed it is so ingrained into the human psyche that even modern man finds himself thinking that way sometimes.

However, it has absolutely no basis in fact. Whether or not any particular substance is active against any particular disease has nothing at all to do with whatever symptoms it might cause in a healthy person.

Therefore, there is no reason at all to believe that "homoeopathy works" at any dilution at all.

However, at the very low potencies, that is under 24X and 12C, there are indeed some traces of the original mother tincture present. It would therefore be foolish to declare that it is entirely impossible that any such preparation could ever have any sort of physiological effect. Especially right down at 6X, it's possible that certain individual preparations of particularly pharmacologically active substances might have an effect. For example, if you started with a highly concentrated mother tincture, I think you'd be very unwise to take a 6X preparation of potassium cyanide.

This is nevertheless not any sort of admission that "homoeopathy works" at these dilutions. Merely an observation that sometimes, with certain preparations, something might happen. Probably not that a disease would be cured though!

However, we note that when homoeopaths practise, they usually use much higher dilutuions than this. 30C is a very common prescription, and 200C seems quite popular too.

We know that such preparations have absolutely nothing at all of the mother tincture in them. We therefore discard all these earler caveats and state categorically that these preparations cannot possibly have any effect at all (beyond whatever effect the carrier solvent might have).

It is thus interesting that these homoeopaths are continually turning away from our constant questions about the 30C preparations. This is the clear question, to which we want an answer.

DO YOU THEN AGREE THAT 30C PREPARATIONS DO NOT (AND CANNOT) WORK?

Rolfe.

 

[Mouthfire]

So you are going to confirm that all those placebo group "b" were also got cured.

Well, no... I'm actually going to confirm that placebo group "b" spontaneously resolved. Doctors already know that certain infections will resolve by themselves (if you have an intact immune system). This is not something we don't already know....

Do you not find it significant that the group treated with placebo:
1) suffered significantly more pain
2) suffered for a longer amount of time, and
3) are at higher risk for developing complications, such as hemorraghic cystitis, bacterial sepsis and meningitis, and permanent renal damage?

Which is why we treat urinary tract infections with antibiotics, rather than letting them take their natural course.... So, really, the Uraxil did not fail the trial....