How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

Badly Shaved Monkey said:
What it boils down to is that they don't understand that chemistry occurs between atoms, but chemical processes preserve atoms even if they do not necessarily preserve molecules. How gross must be the failing of their basic school science education that they regard themselves as experts while bearing this woeful misconception?


I've had no problem describing the concept of atoms and molecules to my 6 year old son. Do our opponents post from a kindergarten class where these ideas have not been discussed yet? It would explain a lot.

MAS, just in case you haven't kept up with the advances in knowledge of the last 200 years, which you clearly have not since you worship Hahnemann, here is another 200 year old theory that you really need to catch up with;

Dalton's Atomic Theory
 
This was written by MAS at the NCH forum (my emphasis);


"Hi Skepticpath

Thanks for the links.

Hi Hans

I have been told by a net chatter that Einstein proved his equation on a paper (logically and scientifically) and won noble prize. If the problem is to prove "Homeopathy" then many protocols can be defined, why "DBT" specially?


{2) The demonstration, in a double blind placebo controlled (DBPC) trial on real patients, that homeopathic remedies have better curative effects than placebo. Hans}

What do you mean by blinded study. This can be proved easily if you want to see the efficacy of placebo dilution and homeopathic dilution. Although both are identical. Me not understood, what is his actuall demand. Did he interested in proving chemical effects of dilution or medicinal effect on patients?"

But what about this caption from MAS giving one of his lectures to those poor students;

Prof Dr. MAS_is delivering lecture on "Research Methodology in Homoeopathy"

Must have been a pretty feeble lecture given by someone who doesn't know what a blinded study is.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
This was written by MAS at the NCH forum (my emphasis);


"Hi Skepticpath

Thanks for the links.

Hi Hans

I have been told by a net chatter that Einstein proved his equation on a paper (logically and scientifically) and won noble prize. If the problem is to prove "Homeopathy" then many protocols can be defined, why "DBT" specially?


{2) The demonstration, in a double blind placebo controlled (DBPC) trial on real patients, that homeopathic remedies have better curative effects than placebo. Hans}

What do you mean by blinded study. This can be proved easily if you want to see the efficacy of placebo dilution and homeopathic dilution. Although both are identical. Me not understood, what is his actuall demand. Did he interested in proving chemical effects of dilution or medicinal effect on patients?"

But what about this caption from MAS giving one of his lectures to those poor students;

Prof Dr. MAS_is delivering lecture on "Research Methodology in Homoeopathy"

Must have been a pretty feeble lecture given by someone who doesn't know what a blinded study is.

It's pretty sad that a man who supposedly has 10 gazillion degrees, doesn't even understand basic research principles...
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
This was written by MAS at the NCH forum (I have been told by a net chatter that Einstein proved his equation on a paper (logically and scientifically) and won noble prize.

That is the difference between the trained scientists here and you.
I would like to ask you if you can cite the "equation" for which Einstein won the Nobel Prize?
Trickquestion
 
What strikes me most clearly from that post of Mas's that Mojo kindly reproduced is his shaky grasp of ordinary reality.
First you claimed homeopathic medicines have no molecules in above 18x potency
No, I really don't think we did. Our quoted figures for the Avogadro limit were 12C and 24X. So he's completely wrong. In fact we agree that there are probably some molecules in an 18X potency.
(you quoted hypothetical equation which was based on Avogadro’s number, I rejected that equation by presenting scientific facts)
I can't see anywhere where we presented an "equation" of any sort. There were various examples, and quite a few factual assertions, but no actual equation.

And no, Mas didn't "reject" the non-existent quotation by presenting anything, and certainly not anything resembling facts. He did come out with several half-baked remarks about vague and unspecified reactions, and wildly unlikely happenings where normal probability theory is suspended causing all the molecules to rush into his pipette, but there wasn't a single fact in there.
A hence it does not work being the reason, there is no molecules in above 18x. Hence there is no question of working homeopathic dilutions in above 18x potency?
No, Mas, it's 24X (and 12C). We've told you often enough, why can't you remember?
When it was asked to confirm, does homeopathic medicine work under 18x, as these have molecules (that was your claim it has molecules in below 18x), you came and said, whether it works or not just explain to us the working of homeopathic medicine? Is this the scientific approach, you are talking about? Just reply according to the question, whether it works in below 18x when the dilution contain molecules……????
Could anyone possibly find any quote within this or any other forum where any sceptic has actually replied to this effect? No, I didn't think so.

It's easy to argue when you simply ignore what the opposition has actually said, and make up a straw man for yourself. When you simply don't read the refutations of your half-baked positions, and instead confidently declare victory based on a fictitious account of the argument. And especially when you fun to another forum and falsely represent what has been said here to your own benefit.

I'll try it just one more time.

Mas, we KNOW that there are no molecules of the original mother tincture in potencies above about 24X and 12C. This is based on the "Law of the Conservation of Matter". Go look it up.We also know that there are no unexpected molecules of anything else in high-potency homoeopathic remedies. We thus state categorically that homoeopathic preparations cannot have any physiological effect above these dilutions. You have so far presented absolutely zero evidence to suggest the contrary.

Low-potency remedies are a different question. We see no reason to suppose that these "work" in the sense that any of the cures you claim are real. However, we would find it less startling if there were some sort of effect there, as we know there are some residual quantities of the mother tincture present. So, a claim for low-potency homoepathic remedies doing something is just a routine claim for herbal medicine, which is nothing special.

Mas, you seem to be declaring repeatedly that there are indeed molecules other than the stock solvent present in homoeopathic potencies greater than 12C and 24X. We would be interested in seeing a coherent explanation for this belief, because so far you haven't even come close.

Rolfe.

PS. I just noticed the following:
I also presented examples from your science books but again you denied and came with the words “don’t waste our time in irrelevant question and answers just explain to us how does homeopathy work”, mine position is, if you will not follow my lecture and if you will not give me feed back on my questions, then tell me the method of instruction, which may I adopt to teach you how does homeopathy work?
He thinks we didn't give him feedback? It's true, he can't even read.
 
Oh, cancel all that. I'm beginning to think debating Mas is about as constructive as debating the Time Cube guy.

Mas, if you ever grow a brain, let me know.

Rolfe.
 
hallo Rolfe,
The thing about 18x potency stems from a thread on the nhc forum (here) and it was started by Non-sense Homeopath, go figure...
Re mas' brain, I think that the problem is that, like the nickname, the whole family is sharing only one. (as per mas qualification thread)
 
Gaga said:
hallo Rolfe,
The thing about 18x potency stems from a thread on the nhc forum (here) and it was started by Non-sense Homeopath, go figure...
Yeah, I saw it. But the surreal thing is, at first that exchange was used to assert that sceptics admit homoeopathy works at 18X. Now, however, Mas seems to have reversed that, and is accusing us of claiming that there are no molecules in 18X.

He can't even keep his own misconceptions straight.

However, since it's not just the sceptics who agree that there are no molecules with talking about over 24X and 12C, it's the entire homoeopathic establishment in the entire developed world, I'm not sure it's worth continuing this debate. I thought it might be fun if Mas had actually presented some concrete arguments in support of his case, but since all he does is say "I reject your argument", then go over to another forum and boast about how scientifically he refuted our errors, it's getting a bit boring.

Rolfe.
 
I have been reading the nchpakistan board but I never registered, and I did not post as a guest either.
But someone else has registered and posted as flume.
Confusing. Nothing wrong with that, just confusing.
It isn't me.

Non-Sense Homeopath has posted there today and is once more arguing something about Avogadro's number not applying because some remedies (e.g. nux vomica) contain lots of different molecules, or something like that.
 
Holy cr@p. Those jerk-*ffs have created accounts with all our names on it. BSM has TWO accounts. There's an account with my username that was created yesterday and I never even visited the site until today. What a bunch of unethical pigs.
 
Hi MAS and all your little cronies. I see you're cutting and pasting my posts and the posts of others to try and get us banned from our own forum by placing them on your forum at nchpakistan in the skeptic area. Is this really what you must stoop to in order to evade simple questions about homeopathy? How do you think all the skeptics are going to feel when they see you are using their usernames like this? How do you think other homeopaths will feel when they see how you behave? You are all truly, truly pathetic.
 
Perpetual Notion said:
Holy cr@p. Those jerk-*ffs have created accounts with all our names on it. BSM has TWO accounts. There's an account with my username that was created yesterday and I never even visited the site until today. What a bunch of unethical pigs.
Whohoo! I have an account over there! Yay me! Wait...

In any case, did you actually expect homeopaths to have ethics? You're trying to get blood form a rock. Or as the same saying goes in Spanish, you're trying to get pears out of the elm tree.
 
Well, either homeopaths don't have ethics or delphi_ote has a personal vendetta against me that I don't know about because he's trying to get me banned!! ;) We're in a homeopathic parallel universe!! :D
 
Perpetual Notion said:
We're in a homeopathic parallel universe!! :D

That sounds nice. Does it have very little of everything?

I sometimes wish that one could dilute people, especially homeopaths.
 
Perpetual Notion said:
Hi MAS and all your little cronies. I see you're cutting and pasting my posts and the posts of others to try and get us banned from our own forum by placing them on your forum at nchpakistan in the skeptic area. Is this really what you must stoop to in order to evade simple questions about homeopathy? How do you think all the skeptics are going to feel when they see you are using their usernames like this? How do you think other homeopaths will feel when they see how you behave? You are all truly, truly pathetic.

No, both those BSM's are me.

Their site lets you post without registering, you just give a name on your post. I then sorted out a yahoo mail account and registered, but got into a muddle with it and had to register a second time dropping the spaces in my identity name, hence "Badly Shaved Monkey" and "BadlyShavedMonkey"

Just trying to get MAS to answer the questions on his home forum if he won't do it here. At leat the embarrassment factor may be higher for him there if public reminders of his failure keep being posted.
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Just trying to get MAS to answer the questions on his home forum if he won't do it here. At leat the embarrassment factor may be higher for him there if public reminders of his failure keep being posted.
Do you think it's worth it? I mean, these guys are so far out on a limb that we're learning nothing and they're learning nothing.

They clearly have no understanding of what they're saying, but have such overweening self-confidence that they're not going to re-examine their assertions. It would be possible to explain where they were going wrong to any reasonably bright ten-year-old, but I'm honestly now of the opinion that it's going to be impossible to explain it to them.

Non-Sense seems to think that the mother tincture of nux vomica is 1M for every single molecule in the nux vomica plant. And he's only going on vaguely about unspecified reactions he can't define, seemingly with no concept of the law of conservation of matter, implying that subsequent reactions actually create more material. The combination of such enormous misconceptions with such enormous and impenetrable personal pride is, I think, hopeless.

I'll tell you what I'd like to see. One of the scientifically literate homoeopaths who does understand about the conservation of matter and the Avogadro Limit, trying to educate these blockheads!

Rolfe.
 
Anybody has any experience with Luise Kunkle? She seems to be comparatively rational.

Hans
 
Perpetual Notion said:
Holy cr@p. Those jerk-*ffs have created accounts with all our names on it. BSM has TWO accounts. There's an account with my username that was created yesterday and I never even visited the site until today. What a bunch of unethical pigs.
Oh well, if I ever bother registering over there, I guess I'll just have to use our other cat's name. I registered here as Mojo partly because the other cat (her name will, for obvious reasons, not be revealed at this time) is remarkably stupid and gullible, even for a cat, and I therefore didn't feel it was appropriate to register her on a sceptical forum. She should be OK over there though... ;)
 
Mojo said:
Oh well, if I ever bother registering over there, I guess I'll just have to use our other cat's name.
Ah, good idea, maybe I'll follow suit. (Virtual coconut for those who remember the name of my other cat.) It's just that I don't have BSM's patience for sorting out Yahoo accounts.

"John Richard BSc" sounds interesting - I don't suppose anyone's going to own up to being him? I'd suspect BSM, because his writing style is rather reminiscent, but I know that BSM's real name isn't John Richard. I'm also quite familiar with BSM's inimitable style when trolling the homoeopathic forums, and entertaining though it is, it doesn't involve holding conversations with himself!

I do feel somewhat moved to follow one of BSM's suggestions and turn the conversation to the conservation of the atoms of the mother tincture, rather than the molecules.

Rolfe.
 
Molecules or atoms. What is the difference when none are there? ;)

Seriously, As long as I can't make them understand the simple fact that you can only dilute a finite number of anything a finite number of times, I'm not going into the difference between molecules and atoms :rolleyes:.

Hans
 

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