How homeopathy does work? - 4 Years of DHMS course.

[MRC_Hans]

I was not aware of this info that you already knew unless you reveal your identity and qualification. I am facing great problem in sending posts at JREF forum. This is the nine attempt for sending post.

Please read my replies here.

http://www.nch.ipbfree.com/index.php?showtopic=28

Thank you

I will visit this forum whenever I will find time. I am passing through hard time. I am busy in arranging seminar.

For those who have not registered on th NCH forum, here is MAS's "reply":

In order to understand correctly how do homeopathic remedies react, we should have clear idea about the body immune system and vital force (vitality, life force etc). The immune system is composed of many interdependent cell types, these cells have specialized system. All works on different level and Often, these cells depend on other factors for response. This response can be generated from any source.

In other words, no answer .

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

Looking for serious questioning!

I have decided not to indulge in irrelevent discussion.

i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand.

Then kindly answer my questions. Or expain why they are not relevant.

... Seriously, MAS; right now you are busily confirming the sad conclusion I have had to come to after debating a large number of homeopaths: You don't have any answers, and you don't really have a clue about what you are doing.

Hans

 

[Zep]

Looking for serious questioning!

I have decided not to indulge in irrelevent discussion.

i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand.

Thank you! Excellent! So I will take you at your word, expect you made this as an honest offer, and ask for you to explain this:

PLEASE DESCRIBE, IN DETAIL WITH SUPPORTING MATHEMATICS, HOW MANY MOLECULES OF MOTHER TINCTURE THERE ARE IN EACH DILUTION OF A HOMEOPATHIC REMEDY, DOWN TO 30C DILUTION LEVEL USING THE CLASSIC HANHEMANN METHOD.

Please use the example of sodium chloride (tincture) in water (base solvent), to make things easy for us so we can understand. We already know that there are 3.3x10^23 molecules in 1ml of pure water. We wait for you to show us how many molecules there are in 1gm of sodium chloride. We wait for you to show us the mathematics of homeopathic dilution.

Over to you, Mas.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Ok, MAS has deigned to submit another "lesson" on the NCH forum, using ye olde smokescreen excuse of not being able to post here:

MAS on the NCH forum:

Hi skeptics, when I will deliver my lecture, you will get your replies. Read and see, how many replies have been received to you.

The homeopathic way, is to give the suffering patient who has a set a of particular symptoms which characterize their condition, a minute dose of a substance which in large doses causes similar symptoms of an artificially inflicted disturbance in a healthy person. For example, if a healthy person takes belladonna tincture / extract for reasonable time. The following symptoms will be born depends upon the susceptibility of the healthy person.

delirium;
excitement;
talking, conversation; in sleep;
vertigo

or etc



We know that the first step in science is “method of scientific research” i.e. Observation, hypothesis, experiment and result and on the basis of result we explain theory and if theory comes true then it become law.

Let’s see what was observed?

Potassium Cyanide KCN, an extremely poisonous white compound. When potassium cyanide (in reasonable quantity) was given following symptoms were born.

As all cyanides, potassium cyanide is a potent poison blocking the cells' electron transport chain by forming a permanent bind with the iron atom in heme of cytochromes. The result is disruption of the cell's breathing process.

· Headache
· Dizziness
· Confusion
· Nausea
· Shortness of breath
· Convulsions
· Vomiting
· Weakness
· Anxiety
· Irregular heart beat
· Tightness in the chest
· Unconsciousness
· Effects may be delayed.

These were the observations when cyanide was administrated. You cannot deny this observation. Same when belladonna was administerated some symptoms were involve as mentioned above.

(to be continued)


--------------------

Dr. MAS

Oh, and just for the record: I have not heard anybody deny that cyanide could poison you .

Hans

 

[MRC_Hans]

So, a very short "lecture" every other day, 1/3 of which is a repetition of the previous one. No wonder the education takes 4 years.

Hans

 

[Rolfe]

i assure you I will explain everything to you whatevery you demand.

(Why is it I find that winkie-smilie an ominous sign?)

Mas, please explain to us the evidence you have for your belief that "like cures like" is any sort of general or natural law. Bearing in mind that Hahnemann was mistaken in his belief that cinchona bark causes symptoms similar to those of malaria, and that modern provings are done using preparations that contain none of the substance nominally under test.

Also please answer Badly Shaved Monkey's question.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

I see that "Non-Sense Homeopath" has been suspended "whilst we attempt to resolve some apparent discrepancies in his registration information", according to Darat. Well, thank the Lord for small mercies.

I suppose any speculation that he's a sock-puppet of Dr. MAS would be totally premature and inappropriate?

Rolfe.

 

[flume]

Originally posted by Rolfe I suppose any speculation that he's a sock-puppet of Dr. MAS would be totally premature and inappropriate?

Dr. MAS usually posts between 8-10 PM and between 2-8 AM Pacific time, which is probably between 9-11 AM and between 3-9 PM his time. I think he does not post from home. Since he mentioned 'leaving the institute, he probably posts from work or maybe his computer club. Homeo Man posts within this time frame, which could mean he also does not post from home. Maybe he is one of Dr. MAS's associates.

Non-Sense Homeopath usually posts at around 6 PM PDT, which would probably be 7 AM in Dr. MAS's time zone.

So their posting patterns are different, whatever that means.

 

[delphi_ote]

How does homeopathy work? for this purpose, a thread was initiated. wait for dr.mas to come.

He is engaged in organizing 4th national seminar which will be held on 29th of may. I will also be there.

This is between me and delphi_ote. You and MAS keep out!

I'd hate for you to think I wasn't showing courage by bothering you, MAS, my brother, sisters, Rolfe's mother, fathers, uncles, mummy, daddy, aunti, cousins, maternal father, sister in laws, father in laws, servants etc.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Yes, I saw that bit. But it's not strictly accurate, is it? It's 6.022 x 10 <SUP>20</SUP> sulphate ions, but twice that many sodium ions.

Just to be picky.

Rolfe.

Dammit, you're right!

Edited to add;

See that, MAS. Rolfe and I made mistakes and corrected each other. We have both learnt (or, at least, been reminded of) something. So, all you have to do is answer the questions you've been asked and learn from the replies you get. Dead easy!

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I'm sorry, the concept of my mother even knowing how to turn on a computer is so hysterically funny that I probably won't be able to stop laughing for a week. (Except that, sadly, her eyesight is so poor she probably wouldn't be able to read the screen if she did manage it.)

Rolfe.

Do you think MAS writes in his big coloured letters for her benefit?

"MAS and Rolfe's Mum sitting in a tree,
Kay..I..esS..esS..I..eN..Gee"

Yet, I'd always assumed he wrote like that because it is the internet equivalent of writing in crayon.

 

[Rolfe]

It's 6.022 x 10<SUP>20</SUP> sulphate ions, but twice that many sodium ions.

So, we started with a mole (6.022 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium sulphate. However, when we dissolved it, we then had one mole (6.022 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sulphate ions, and two moles (12.044 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium ions. So, three moles (18.066 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of ions in total.

Could this be the root of some of Mas's misconceptions? That when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more particles than you (theoretically) had in the first place? So he thinks that every time you make another dilution, the number of particles grows? One or two of the obscure remarks he's made might be interpreted that way.

I've put this point to him in clear several times, and Geni has said something very similar, but he just ignores these posts in favour of asking again about people's qualifications. Either he doesn't understand what we're saying, or he simply can't answer it, I think.

Rolfe.

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

Could this be the root of some of Mas's misconceptions? That when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more particles than you (theoretically) had in the first place? So he thinks that every time you make another dilution, the number of particles grows? One or two of the obscure remarks he's made might be interpreted that way.

I've put this point to him in clear several times, and Geni has said something very similar, but he just ignores these posts in favour of asking again about people's qualifications. Either he doesn't understand what we're saying, or he simply can't answer it, I think.

Rolfe.

Indeed, it's his disingenuous failure even to try to answer these questions that reveal him to be an utterly contemptible hypocrite. At least if he answered and got the answers wrong he could be answering honestly, but his steadfast refusal to answer questions that he, himself, has prompted shows a knowingness that I find literally sickening.

 

[Rolfe]

You remove the masks and that was not rolfe but her mother.

The thread seems all dead. So just to liven it up, here is a picture of my mother. The guy in the picture is Soapy Sam.

Her name is Anne, and I can assure you, if she ever expresses a desire to post here, I will register her with her own login.

Rolfe.

PS. Sorry, BSM, cross-post. I didn't realise you'd already livened up the proceedings. Mum says hi, by the way.

 

[geni]

Hmm looks like MAS is creaping towards that stimulates the immune system rubish.

 

[Zep]

So, we started with a mole (6.022 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium sulphate. However, when we dissolved it, we then had one mole (6.022 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sulphate ions, and two moles (12.044 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of sodium ions. So, three moles (18.066 x 10<SUP>23</SUP>) of ions in total.

Could this be the root of some of Mas's misconceptions? That when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more particles than you (theoretically) had in the first place? So he thinks that every time you make another dilution, the number of particles grows? One or two of the obscure remarks he's made might be interpreted that way.

I've put this point to him in clear several times, and Geni has said something very similar, but he just ignores these posts in favour of asking again about people's qualifications. Either he doesn't understand what we're saying, or he simply can't answer it, I think.

Rolfe.

A number of us have asked the homeopaths what happens at the SECOND dilution during the remedy-making process, the first one being the only one where this ionisation happens. Kumar, bless his cotton-wool brain, responded with some childish chemistry about building steroid-affected water molecules at each dilution!

 

[Rolfe]

A number of us have asked the homeopaths what happens at the SECOND dilution during the remedy-making process, the first one being the only one where this ionisation happens. Kumar, bless his cotton-wool brain, responded with some childish chemistry about building steroid-affected water molecules at each dilution!

This is intriguing me. When Mas came out with some of his ideas, it was at once easy and yet difficult to see where he was going.

Oh, but you get more molecules when you make the dilutions. What? We know that when you dissolve a salt, you end up with more "moles" than you started with, also in some cases it might be possible that a complex molecule could break down into two or more simpler ones. But as Geni pointed out, there are some remedies where that is quite impossible, and in any case, the effect is strictly limited to the very start of the process and would barely alter the stage at which Avogadro's limit was reached in the diluting steps.

Oh, but the remedy might react with the solvent, thus producing more molecules. Of what? The solvent only has O, H and C atoms in it, therefore any further reaction is limited to molecules composed of O, H and C. If the actual remedy substance has different atoms, silver or sulphur or whatever, then there's no reaction will produce any more of these. Thus, this suggestion is in a way just a variation on the old "memory of water" idea. And of course, nobody has ever been able to demonstrate the existence of any complex hydrocarbons or carbohydrates in the final dilutions anyway.

Oh, but you're forgetting probability theory, the pipette might pick up less or more than 1% of the solute each time. Er, we know quite a lot about pipetting accuracy, and we know that the chance of it being out by more than 5% (of the 1%) (at a generous estimate) is remote. Probability theory also tells us that such errors will tend to cancel out, with again a very low probability that successive operations would all err on the same side. Regularly, repeatably and reliably getting substantially more than the nominal amount is impossible unless the instruments are badly calibrated. (Even Kumar understood this, when he started suggesting special pores in the glass, and coating the glassware with remedy substance.) Again, pipetting imprecision wouldn't change the dilution at which you'd arrive at Avogadro's limit. (And could never explain why all the bottles of a remedy preparation would have active ingredient in them.)

So, where might Mas have been going with these ideas? It's obvious that in fact they go nowhere. But I'm beginning to suspect that he didn't realise this. He just saw the beginning of the idea, and jumped straight to "well, that explains it!", without actually doing the working. Then when he saw us instantly do the working for him, and demonstrate that the ideas were baseless, he bottled? Is it possible that anyone could be so stupid?

Well, if I'm wrong, maybe he'll explain. I'm not holding my breath though.

Rolfe.

 

[Doc2005]

I think, we must appreciate Dr. MAS, he is going well. He has 18 years of teaching experience.

The words from Hans are very important to discuss "mrc_hans said "Hold on there! Nobody denies that many substances, including the ones mentioned, give certain symptoms, when taken in appropriate doses.

So, belladonna and potassium cyanate each invokes their characterisic symptom profile when given to a healthy person, in a suitable dose that is large enough to invoke symptoms, but not large enough to be dangerous."

Skeptics are accepting points one by one. But they don't what they want to discuss. They have accepted that during belladonna proving symptoms were born which are mentioned in materia medica. This is very good going.

Well done Dr. MAS
full marks to you.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Uhm.. Welcome to the forum.

I think, we must appreciate Dr. MAS, he is going well. He has 18 years of teaching experience.

Cool. Have you any guess as to when he will start teaching, then?


Hans

 

[Donks]

I think, we must appreciate Dr. MAS, he is going well. He has 18 years of teaching experience.

Hmm....