• Due to ongoing issues caused by Search, it has been temporarily disabled
  • Please excuse the mess, we're moving the furniture and restructuring the forum categories

[Continuation] Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla II

it's the tim tebow effect. he had a bad throwing motion, sub 500 completion percentage, could only do one read, but was surrounded by a great team and could scramble. so he got criticized, heavily. but his fans can't really explain away any of that, so the answer was always whatever, he just wins. can't really explain away that there's factually not enough hours in the day to do all the things he does, and you know he is a terminally online twitter addict, and you know he's an avid gamer, and you know he's on every podcast and public event. but, you don't know what he's doing while he's ceo or how much time he spends, but his companies are successful. he just wins, that's good enough.

but peyton manning came to the team the next season and threw 5000 yards and 55TDs with that same roster. but this is like if tim tebow bought the broncos and made himself qb for life. none of it matters, elon worship is not an argument based on merit.
 
Marcus said:
So many posts on this thread, enumerating the Cybertrucks many faults. It's terrible, it's ugly, surely no one will buy it. And yet, it continues to be the best selling electric truck. It's almost as if people are biased by their dislike for Musk.
Click to expand...
Correction, it was the best selling penis replacement therapy vehicle, a niche part of a niche market.
 
Marcus said:
So many posts on this thread, enumerating the Cybertrucks many faults. It's terrible, it's ugly, surely no one will buy it. And yet, it continues to be the best selling electric truck. It's almost as if people are biased by their dislike for Musk.
Click to expand...
Hang on. I'm biased in favor of Musk. Some of us just know the Cybertruck looks dumb.
 
Marcus said:
So many posts on this thread, enumerating the Cybertrucks many faults. It's terrible, it's ugly, surely no one will buy it. And yet, it continues to be the best selling electric truck. It's almost as if people are biased by their dislike for Musk.
Click to expand...
Who cares? The entire market for electric trucks seems tiny.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
... Meanwile Tesla is getting experience with innovations such as 48 volt architecture, which reduces the amount of copper wire required to 1/4 for big weight and cost savings...
Click to expand...
48V systems to reduce weight, cost and materials is good. Doing it in a 3 tonne lifestyle vehicle is at best ironic.
 
I'm really sorry to break this to people, but some 'awards' are just things that are bought.

If a car magazine gives an award, my assumption is that the car maker has bought a lot of advertising.
 
Gulliver Foyle said:
Correction, it was the best selling penis replacement therapy vehicle, a niche part of a niche market.
Click to expand...
People say this about pickups in general, the penis replacement thing, and I agree to the extent that some people drive them who don't have any use for the functionality. It's amusing to see this said about a traditionally effete category, the electric vehicle. Before Musk's politics were an issue electric vehicles were something of a Democratic standard bearer. I know, times change and at least the Cyberbeast is one beast of a vehicle, even if it doesn't sound like one.
 
jeremyp said:
Who cares? The entire market for electric trucks seems tiny.
Click to expand...
Why it would be great for a lot of working trucks that need to haul a bunch of crap around but are not going that many miles per day. The problem is that the tesla truck fails to truck well. It lacks the towing capacity, bed size and so forth that make a good working truck.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Why it would be great for a lot of working trucks that need to haul a bunch of crap around but are not going that many miles per day. The problem is that the tesla truck fails to truck well. It lacks the towing capacity, bed size and so forth that make a good working truck.
Click to expand...
Ah, so now we know why Ford 'paused' production of the F-150 Lightning - because it's towing capacity and bed size are less than the Cybertruck. Or perhaps that's not really it. Perhaps thousands of Cybertruck owners are finding that it 'trucks' just fine. Perhaps somenone here has never even driven a Cybertruck, let alone towed or carted anything with it.
 
dirtywick said:

government corruption already paying off as tesla may benefit from relaxed regulations on self driving cars. bad news for people on the roads as they become less safe to be on.
Click to expand...

That may be true in the short term. I’ve been playing with the current iteration of “Full Self Driving” - a free month gifted by Tesla - and while it’s remarkable for what it can do, it has to be monitored very closely and does weird and potentially dangerous things with some regularity.

But long term, there is the potential for autonomous driving to be much safer than regular driving. Whether that’s a year or many years away is the question. And in the interim, regulation will definitely be required to keep the roads safe from those overestimating its current capabilities.
 
BYD wipes it's arse on Tesla, in every way. The boring plastic look and feel of the 3* Tesla's is far out shone by any of the 3* BYD's (*available in the UK). The build quality is like comparing Mercedes to Dacia and the ridiculous amount of recalls for Tesla's is frightening.
Did I mention that BYD out performs Tesla sales by approx 3-1.
Tesla my arse!
 
welshdean said:
...and the ridiculous amount of recalls for Tesla's is frightening.
Click to expand...
We still need a new, more precise definition of "recall".

Our 2022 Model 3 has never been taken in for a physical recall in almost 3 years. It HAS been subject to a variety of Over-The-Air updates to satisfy "recalls", but these are seamless and accomplished in about 15 minutes while the car is parked.

As an aside, the build quality of our car has been faultless over 67,000 miles with no squeaks or rattles or misaligned body panels. Only a single data point, to be sure, but I think its known that Tesla's build quality has improved markedly over the years.
 
Fast Eddie B said:
We still need a new, more precise definition of "recall".
Our 2022 Model 3 has never been taken in for a physical recall in almost 3 years. It HAS been subject to a variety of Over-The-Air updates to satisfy "recalls", but these are seamless and accomplished in about 15 minutes while the car is parked.

As an aside, the build quality of our car has been faultless over 67,000 miles with no squeaks or rattles or misaligned body panels. Only a single data point, to be sure, but I think its known that Tesla's build quality has improved markedly over the years.
Click to expand...

Not really, just compare the "recalls" of Tesla vehicles to "recalls" of other manufacturer vehicles. It's a tit for tat comparison.
 
China produces de facto all electric utility vehicles, mining vehicles, buses, scooters and the vast majority of e-bikes.
It produces more electric consumer cars than all other countries combined.
And US EV manufacturers are completely depended on China for their batteries.

All that Trump can do is delay the inevitable for Tesla.
And in the process set the US back another four years behind everybody else.
 
Last edited:
Fast Eddie B said:
That may be true in the short term. I’ve been playing with the current iteration of “Full Self Driving” - a free month gifted by Tesla - and while it’s remarkable for what it can do, it has to be monitored very closely and does weird and potentially dangerous things with some regularity.

But long term, there is the potential for autonomous driving to be much safer than regular driving. Whether that’s a year or many years away is the question. And in the interim, regulation will definitely be required to keep the roads safe from those overestimating its current capabilities.
Click to expand...
i mean, we are talking about the short term.

it's not me saying this isn't worth pursing or anything. it's not safer than regular driving, and instead of meeting the safety standards he's leaning into corruption to lower them so he can personally profit. he's also leaning into corruption to tariff his overseas competitors and remove tax breaks that hurt his competitors more than tesla, again to his personal profit.

i'd be more concerned if i drove a tesla that this guy is going to make a quality product at all when he's eliminating competition and safety standards instead of trying to achieve that on merit. fortunately, i just need to share the road with them. better odds for me i guess.
 
plague311 said:
It's a tit for tat comparison.
Click to expand...
Tit: Get notified. Call dealer to make an appointment. Drive to appointment. Leave car for a specified time and arrange for a ride home. When ready, arrange ride back to dealer to pick up car. Drive home. Done.

Tat: Get notified. Click button in app to initiate update. Wait 15 minutes or so. Done.

One of these is not like the other.
 
The Great Zaganza said:
China produces de facto all electric utility vehicles, mining vehicles, buses, scooters and the vast majority of e-bikes.
It produces more electric consumer cars than all other countries combined.
And US EV manufacturers are completely depended on China for their batteries.

All that Trump can do is delay the inevitable for Tesla.
And in the process set the US back another four years behind everybody else.
Click to expand...
the chinese are a lot closer to a $25k model than tesla ever will be. instead they put the government's finger on the scale.

that people buy this guy is going to save the world is sad
 
Fast Eddie B said:
Tit: Get notified. Call dealer to make an appointment. Drive to appointment. Leave car for a specified time and arrange for a ride home. When ready, arrange ride back to dealer to pick up car. Drive home. Done.

Tat: Get notified. Click button in app to initiate update. Wait 15 minutes or so. Done.

One of these is not like the other.
Click to expand...

You're missing my point. Tesla is a car, other cars probably get "recalled" for things that are software related, etc. as well. If they're all labeled as "recalls" then it's still a valid comparison. I understand, completely, the Musk apologetics in play here but the issues being fixed aren't generally mundane. They're things that affect the functionality of the vehicle.

My point was the the word "recall" is applied the same to Ford EV's, Chevy EV's, etc., right? So why does Tesla always need to be a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ exception with you guys?
 
seems to me what should be important in comparing recalls is the safety risk of the defect, the fact they exist is a lapse in quality controls whether it's software or hardware and they can be just a serious, even if they are easier to correct.
 
welshdean said:
BYD wipes it's arse on Tesla, in every way. The boring plastic look and feel of the 3* Tesla's is far out shone by any of the 3* BYD's (*available in the UK). The build quality is like comparing Mercedes to Dacia and the ridiculous amount of recalls for Tesla's is frightening.
Did I mention that BYD out performs Tesla sales by approx 3-1.
Tesla my arse!
Click to expand...
The local Nissan Dealer here sells BYDs - or at least they did when I was there last April. Since I had some time to spare while my Leaf was being serviced, I had a good look at the BYD EVs in their showroom. The word that best describes the interior is 'kitsch'. I much prefer Tesla's clean minimalist design.

Their boots seemed rather small compared to the size of the vehicle. My 2011 Leaf has a small boot mostly due to the size and shape of the battery. The boot capacity is only 330l. If I was buying a new vehicle I would want a lot more. The BYD Dolphin, which is slightly smaller than my Leaf, has 345l of boot space, barely an improvement. The BYD Seal has 400l, but the vehicle is considerably larger at 355mm (14") longer and 105mm (4") wider. It might not fit in my garage! It's also 322kg (~146lb) heavier. The current Leaf has 435l of boot space, and yet is still the same size and weight as the original 2011 model despite having 70% more battery capacity. It's also less than half the price in New Zealand right now, at NZ$29,990 (~US$17,700) vs $61,990 for the Seal. If I didn't already have one...

I do like the external styling of the Seal, but I like the Tesla Model 3 more. The Model 3 sells for NZ$63,900 here, a bit more than the Seal but then it also has longer range and is more efficient. You talk about build quality, but what about reliability? While I was at the Nissan service center they had two BYD's on the hoists, and I overheard a mechanic trying to explain to a customer why there was such a delay in getting parts - for vehicles they had only just started selling!

Several people at my work have Teslas, so I was able to get a good look at them. I didn't see anything wrong with the build quality. Some say it's only Teslas made in the US that have issues, and the Chinese-made ones are better. I guess that's another thing Americans will have to put up with for a while longer...

As for BYD outselling Tesla 3:1, that's only (almost) true if you include hybrids. Since 2020 Tesla has consistently outsold BYD in BEV sales except for Q4 of 2023. But more importantly Tesla is making more profit. That means it can afford to fund more development and cut prices if necessary to stay competitive. Right now they don't need to cut prices because people are willing to pay more for a Tesla. Most other automakers are losing heaps on every EV they sell, but even those that aren't are still cannibalizing sales from their own gas and hybrid vehicles, which makes transitioning to EVs much harder for them (unless they commit fully to it, which they will never do).

Tesla delivers 462,890 cars globally in Q3, higher than BYD's BEV sales​

tesla vs byd 2024 q3.png
I'm not saying BYD won't overtake Tesla in the near future, but it's not nearly the slam dunk you make it out to be. Despite selling nearly 3 times as many cars overall, BYD's revenue is only slightly higher at $28.24 billion in September 2024, vs Tesla’s $25.2 billion (17% higher than the same period last year). And Tesla remains on top in year-to-date sales, at $71.98 billion vs BYD’s $70.53 billion total revenue.

So while BYD probably is on the way to edging out Tesla in BEV sales and total revenue, that doesn't mean Tesla isn't also doing well. Tesla's higher margins, better reputation and greater innovation mean they will probably be in the game at least long as BYD if not longer (despite the Chinese government propping up domestic industries that are 'too big to fail').

But the real difference is that Tesla isn't just a car company. Their battery storage and AI products have the potential to do much more. Battery storage is already ramping up exponentially and is a pretty sure thing. Cybercabs and autonomous robots are less sure, but Tesla is closer to getting them working properly than anyone else. That's why Tesla is investing so much in AI. Unlike Microsoft etc, it isn't just about conning customers into thinking they are buying something useful. Truly autonomous machines are the next industrial revolution.

Those of us who grew up the late 20th century have been waiting a long time for this. Now as we head towards the mid 21st century it's finally becoming a reality. But it's people like Musk - who are willing to 'think outside the box' and pour everything they have into it - who are needed to make it so. Of course those people tend to attract a lot of skepticism too, some of it justified but a lot of it not. It's amazing how many armchair rocket scientists, engineers and economics experts have gotten together to assure us that Musk is an idiot and Tesla and SpaceX's creations are all just smoke and mirrors. Any day now the whole house of cards is going to come crashing down to reveal that they are the true geniuses who saw through Musk's lies. :wink:

And yet every day millions of Teslas are actually driven and their owners love them, and fsd creeps closer and closer to being better than human drivers, and space rockets blast off and complete their missions, and battery storage continues to grow as power companies find they actually do help stabalize the grid etc. etc. Which only makes the detractors scream even louder about how it's all a con and Musk's an idiot. At some point you have to wonder who the real idiots are...

"Tesla my arse!" you say. Well we'll see. I bet that whether Musk and Tesla ultimately succeed or fail, their contributions will be rightly recognized in the history books for centuries to come - while your arse...
 
Last edited:
dirtywick said:
seems to me what should be important in comparing recalls is the safety risk of the defect, the fact they exist is a lapse in quality controls whether it's software or hardware and they can be just a serious, even if they are easier to correct.
Click to expand...

Stipulated that recalls would not be issued were safely not an issue.

But one of the Tesla recalls was for simply redesigning instrument panel icons for increased legibility:

54152687435_a2f18532e0_z.jpg


Old above/new below. Lower right is obscured by an onscreen icon on my screenshot.

Yes, I can see how difficult-to-see icons might be unsafe, though it takes some imagination. And many of the Tesla recalls seem fairly minor and easy to fix via software update. Just something to be considered when looking at the raw number of Tesla recalls.
 
plague311 said:
You're missing my point. Tesla is a car, other cars probably get "recalled" for things that are software related, etc. as well. If they're all labeled as "recalls" then it's still a valid comparison. I understand, completely, the Musk apologetics in play here but the issues being fixed aren't generally mundane. They're things that affect the functionality of the vehicle.

My point was the the word "recall" is applied the same to Ford EV's, Chevy EV's, etc., right? So why does Tesla always need to be a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ exception with you guys?
Click to expand...
It's not just Tesla, Any 'recall' that's just an over-the-air update should be called what it is. Lumping them in with real recalls, where the vehicle has to be taken to a service center to be modified, is wrong. There's a good reason why they should be named differently. Compare it to other products such a laptop computer or cellphone. When it does a software update that's quite rightly the correct name for it. When you have to take it back to the dealer to fix a design fault that could cause it to catch fire, that's a recall.

The problem is that the automotive industry isn't keeping up with modern technology - and the Luddites are taking advantage of it. If someone told you that their computer had to be 'recalled' 12 times last year because the web broswer does a monthly update, you would rightly call them a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ troll. The same applies to cars. The trolls are only using this category error as an excuse to bash Tesla. They never talk about all the real recalls that plague the car industry, particularly gas and hybrid cars. They don't talk about it because it because it doesn't suit their agenda.

But those real recalls have a much greater impact on the owners, who are often wihout their vehicles for days or weeks. Even worse, sometimes the recall doesn't actually fix the fault, and the verhicle has to be returned for another go! Furthermore those recalls are generally for really bad stuff, such as the brakes failing or the engine detroying itself causing the vehicle to catch fire, vs software 'recalls' that are nothing more than changing a font size because the authorities have decided it doesn't meet their standard (when last week it did).

My point is that this 'recall' nonsense isn't about what it's made out to be - it's actually about a bunch of liars twisting facts to bolster their agendas. If we all just accepted that a software 'recall' is only called that because the regulators haven't caught up with the technology yet, we wouldn't have a problem with it. Sadly however, in the real world people aren't rational and reasonable. In the real world everybody's trying to hack society to get a personal advantage - whether for profit, power over others, popularity or just to bolster their fragile egos. The truth doesn't matter. Making things better for all doesn't matter either - just making things 'better' for you.
 
Last edited:
Marcus said:
So many posts on this thread, enumerating the Cybertrucks many faults. It's terrible, it's ugly, surely no one will buy it. And yet, it continues to be the best selling electric truck. It's almost as if people are biased by their dislike for Musk.
Click to expand...
How many electric trucks are there to be competing against?
 
Ah,
The Great Zaganza said:
China produces de facto all electric utility vehicles, mining vehicles, buses, scooters and the vast majority of e-bikes.
It produces more electric consumer cars than all other countries combined.
And US EV manufacturers are completely depended on China for their batteries.

All that Trump can do is delay the inevitable for Tesla.
And in the process set the US back another four years behind everybody else.
Click to expand...
but Trump’s 100% tariff on Chinese imports will sort all of those markets out . . .
 
Roger Ramjets said:
My point is that this 'recall' nonsense isn't about what it's made out to be - it's actually about a bunch of liars twisting facts to bolster their agendas. If we all just accepted that a software 'recall' is only called that because the regulators haven't caught up with the technology yet, we wouldn't have a problem with it. Sadly however, in the real world people aren't rational and reasonable. In the real world everybody's trying to hack society to get a personal advantage - whether for profit, power over others, popularity or just to bolster their fragile egos. The truth doesn't matter. Making things better for all doesn't matter either - just making things 'better' for you.
Click to expand...
hahaha unbelievable that this was written in defense of tesla and elon musk unironically
 
EHocking said:
Ah,

but Trump’s 100% tariff on Chinese imports will sort all of those markets out . . .
Click to expand...
....and remember it's China that will be paying those tariffs, not the US consumer who, for some unfathomable reason, is paying twice as much for their BYD as their neighbour in Canada. :xrolleyes
 
Roger Ramjets said:
As for BYD outselling Tesla 3:1, that's only (almost) true if you include hybrids.
Click to expand...
Yes, but why wouldn't you include the hybrids?


Roger Ramjets said:
Since 2020 Tesla has consistently outsold BYD in BEV sales except for Q4 of 2023. But more importantly Tesla is making more profit. That means it can afford to fund more development and cut prices if necessary to stay competitive.
Click to expand...
Why are we not seeing the fruits of that extra development? All they've done in the last few years is one horrible looking expensive and dangerous truck, an articulated lorry that seems to have disappeared and a few facelifts. Where's the new cheaper model? Where's the new Roadster?


Roger Ramjets said:
Right now they don't need to cut prices
Click to expand...
Right

www.bbc.co.uk

Tesla: EV giant cuts prices in major markets as sales fall

The move comes after the firm reported a sharp fall in deliveries in the first three months of 2024.
www.bbc.co.uk
Roger Ramjets said:
But the real difference is that Tesla isn't just a car company. Their battery storage and AI products have the potential to do much more. Battery storage is already ramping up exponentially and is a pretty sure thing.
Click to expand...
Yes but it's just batteries. It doesn't seem like it's something where Tesla has a USP.

Roger Ramjets said:
Cybercabs and autonomous robots are less sure, but Tesla is closer to getting them working properly than anyone else.
Click to expand...
Ha ha. Other companies already have Cybercabs in limited use in some US cities. Tesla has a remote controlled (by a human) demonstrator. Tesla is years behind the competition.

Roger Ramjets said:
That's why Tesla is investing so much in AI. Unlike Microsoft etc, it isn't just about conning customers into thinking they are buying something useful. Truly autonomous machines are the next industrial revolution.
Click to expand...
Tesla has a problem with AI. Musk has set up another company that's doing AI and he keeps funnelling his resources into that, including resources that belong to Tesla.

Roger Ramjets said:
Those of us who grew up the late 20th century have been waiting a long time for this. Now as we head towards the mid 21st century it's finally becoming a reality. But it's people like Musk - who are willing to 'think outside the box' and pour everything they have into it - who are needed to make it so. Of course those people tend to attract a lot of skepticism too, some of it justified but a lot of it not. It's amazing how many armchair rocket scientists, engineers and economics experts have gotten together to assure us that Musk is an idiot and Tesla and SpaceX's creations are all just smoke and mirrors. Any day now the whole house of cards is going to come crashing down to reveal that they are the true geniuses who saw through Musk's lies. :wink:
Click to expand...

You don't have to be a genius to see through Musk's lies. Just look at the original presentation for Cybertruck and then look at what was delivered. He lied about the price, the range and the structural design. Look at all his pronouncements on FSD. He lies at least once a year about it.

I'm not a genius but I can tell he lies all the time. At this point, especially considering your obviously false statement "Tesla is closer to getting them [Cybercabs] working properly than anyone else" I can only conclude you are in a cult.
 
welshdean said:
BYD wipes it's arse on Tesla, in every way. The boring plastic look and feel of the 3* Tesla's is far out shone by any of the 3* BYD's (*available in the UK). The build quality is like
comparing Mercedes to Dacia and the ridiculous amount of recalls for Tesla's is frightening.
Did I mention that BYD out performs Tesla sales by approx 3-1.
Tesla my arse!
Click to expand...
As a proud Dacia owner, I resent that remark. 🤬
 
Roger Ramjets said:
It's not just Tesla, Any 'recall' that's just an over-the-air update should be called what it is. Lumping them in with real recalls, where the vehicle has to be taken to a service center to be modified, is wrong. There's a good reason why they should be named differently. Compare it to other products such a laptop computer or cellphone. When it does a software update that's quite rightly the correct name for it. When you have to take it back to the dealer to fix a design fault that could cause it to catch fire, that's a recall.

The problem is that the automotive industry isn't keeping up with modern technology - and the Luddites are taking advantage of it. If someone told you that their computer had to be 'recalled' 12 times last year because the web broswer does a monthly update, you would rightly call them a ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ troll. The same applies to cars. The trolls are only using this category error as an excuse to bash Tesla. They never talk about all the real recalls that plague the car industry, particularly gas and hybrid cars. They don't talk about it because it because it doesn't suit their agenda.

But those real recalls have a much greater impact on the owners, who are often wihout their vehicles for days or weeks. Even worse, sometimes the recall doesn't actually fix the fault, and the verhicle has to be returned for another go! Furthermore those recalls are generally for really bad stuff, such as the brakes failing or the engine detroying itself causing the vehicle to catch fire, vs software 'recalls' that are nothing more than changing a font size because the authorities have decided it doesn't meet their standard (when last week it did).

My point is that this 'recall' nonsense isn't about what it's made out to be - it's actually about a bunch of liars twisting facts to bolster their agendas. If we all just accepted that a software 'recall' is only called that because the regulators haven't caught up with the technology yet, we wouldn't have a problem with it. Sadly however, in the real world people aren't rational and reasonable. In the real world everybody's trying to hack society to get a personal advantage - whether for profit, power over others, popularity or just to bolster their fragile egos. The truth doesn't matter. Making things better for all doesn't matter either - just making things 'better' for you.
Click to expand...

Cool, so the word "recall" still applies to all car manufacturers the exact same, is what you're saying? Cool, me too. Good talk, high five.
 
The Don said:
....and remember it's China that will be paying those tariffs, not the US consumer who, for some unfathomable reason, is paying twice as much for their BYD as their neighbour in Canada. :xrolleyes
Click to expand...
Though to be honest, even with the tarrifs, the BYD will still be half the price of the Tesla.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom