jeremyp
Illuminator
They aren't under the same ownership. xAI is owned by Elon Musk. Tesla is a publicly traded company and Musk is only one minority shareholder.
This is a clear case of a man appropriating assets he didn't own for his own purposes.
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[Continuation] Musk, SpaceX and future of Tesla II
- Thread starter a_unique_person
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This is a clear case of a man appropriating assets he didn't own for his own purposes.
dirtywick
Philosopher
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you're right, i misspoke. although i think due to the way the board is structured at tesla it's not run as a public company typically would be and musk has a disproportionate amount of control relative to his ownership.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
He's stacked the board with family and friends.
jeremyp
Illuminator
I can't disagree with that. In any reasonable public company, Musk would have been fired as CEO some time ago. Unfortunately, the stock is overpriced mainly because of the Musk factor and even the rational shareholders won't fire him or his nepotistic board because they don't want to see the price readjust itself to a more rational level.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
Still theft though. Any proper board would have immediately canned Galaxy Brain and called in the rozzers over it.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
Yeah, it wouldn't have anything to do with Tesla's rise from a 2-bit outfit started by a consultant for AC Propulsion (current annual income ~$7 million) with ideas of making a boutique electric sports car in 2003, to a multinational company with 7 factories around the World producing the top selling car model of any kind in 2023. It also wouldn't have anything to do with Tesla growing its energy storage business by 360% in 2022 and 157% in 2023, expecting to account for ~20% of total income in upcoming periods. And it wouldn't have anything to do with the Cybertruck becoming profitable in October, doubling sales from the previous quarter and outselling its nearest rival the Ford F-150 Lightning by 230% (Ford just announced a 'pause' on the F-150 Lightning until January next year, probably to stop the bleeding as they lose $30,000 on every truck sold).
Or if that is the 'Musk factor' you are talking about, how does that make the stock overpriced? Unless somethig goes horribly wrong in the near future, I'm betting the current stock price will soon be looking quite undervalued. And with Musk now having the President's ear - as opposed to being constantly 'looked into' by the Biden adminstration - Tesla is likely to do even better in the next 4 years.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
You know as well as I do that everything you said was done despite Galaxy Brain. Why are you still simping for him?
MDS
jeremyp
Illuminator
Just look at the financials of Tesla and compare them to the financials of any other similar sized company and it becomes obvious that Tesla stock is over priced.
jeremyp
Illuminator
I don't agree. The Cybertruck was done because of Elon Musk. Then again, the Cybertruck is not really the success Roger is trying to paint. Yes it outsells other EV trucks but it's really ugly, has a load of technical issues, cost twice as much as Musk said it would and shorter range than Musk said it would. We are supposed to be impressed with the sales figures but Ford sold 100,000 trucks just in October. Tesla sold only 17,000 trucks in the whole third quarter and I'm supposed to be impressed, apparently.
He continued to play a computer game whilst getting an update on SpaceX. He plays the computer game so much he is a top 20 player in the world, unless he has found a way to cheat that takes, hours and hours of playing time. He plays it when acting as a CEO.
dirtywick
Philosopher
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he also spends hours every day on social media
he founded/owns significant portions/has the title of ceo for several successful tech companies. there's not enough hours in a day for him to be heavily involved in all of those things. those are two facts.
he founded/owns significant portions/has the title of ceo for several successful tech companies. there's not enough hours in a day for him to be heavily involved in all of those things. those are two facts.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
But?
You say the Cybertruck is ugly, I say the Ford F-150 and Dodge RAM etc. are ugly. I'm glad Tesla didn't copy their horrible designs. As soon as I saw the Cybertruck I said Yes! that's what I want to see - real innovation - not just an electric motor shoved into a conventional truck. Only Tesla had the balls to do it, and it was Elon Musk who provided the impetus. Regarding the Cybertruck design he said "I want the future to look like the future. We’re not doing a traditional boring truck. We can always do that later. I want to build something that’s cool.".
But Musk didn't design the Cybertruck, Franz von Holzhausen did. He designed all the other Tesla models too, which many
Of course you're not impressed. That would mean admitting that Tesla did something impressive, which won't do at all. You might want to shield your eyes from this next bit,
Kelly Blue Book registration data for 2024
| period | Ford F-150 Lightning | Tesla Cybertruck |
| Q1 | 7,902 | 2,803 |
| Q2 | 7.712 | 8,755 |
| Q3 | 7,162 | 16,692 |
What's remarkable about this is that - as you say - Ford sells a lot of trucks. Only a small percentage of them are EVs, so the potential for growth should be high. When Ford CEO Jim Farley unveiled the F-150 Lightning he promised it would be the top selling EV truck in the US, beating Tesla's Cybertruck 'if it ever appears'. For a while this was true because it took a while for Tesla to develop the Cybertruck, but that quickly changed once production started. As you can see (if you dare to look) from this year's numbers - sales of the F-150 Lightning are declining, while Cybertruck sales are growing exponentially. By Q2 it had already beaten Ford, and in the next quarter almost doubled sales again. Ford's response? They threw in the towel when the Cybertruck had barely been on the market for a year.
That's pretty impressive for a newcomer who had never produced a truck of any kind before. According to Jim Farley Ford 'knows' trucks and 'understands' its customers, so it should be the F-150 Lightning whose sales are going ballistic, not the 'ugly' Cybertruck. Now Ford is 'pausing' EV truck production and planning to make hybrids instead. According to Ford the market for EV trucks just isn't there - the market for Ford's EV trucks that is. It's almost like someone's stealing their sales - I wonder who?
That you aren't impressed by this development just shows how much bias has crept into your thinking. Since you don't recognize the cause of this bias I will spell it out for you - it's Musk. You don't like his political views, so you seek to 'cancel' him by dumping on Tesla.
But it goes further than that. When Musk first entered the spotlight some were describing him as a 'real life Tony Stark'. So-called skeptics (with 'brains the size of a planet') immediately jumped on this. "Musk's no genius", they cried. "I know, because I are one!". They then predicted that Tesla would surely fail due to Musk's stupidity. When that didn't happen and Tesla became the most valuable car company in the World, they
And not just in the US - according to them Musk also has millions under his spell in Europe, China, Australia and even little old New Zealand - where Tesla's Model 3 and Y outsold Ford's Mach-E by 2.75:1 so far this year - despite Ford dropping the price by NZ$50,000 (~US$30,000). All you hear from these people is a constant stream of negativity as they desperately try to spin everything they hear about Tesla to make it sound bad, like you have done here.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
The Cyber Truck sales have tanked. Elon was producing for the pre-orders. They are gone now. What are the new orders.
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
Does this 'really innovative' design work as a pickup truck should? They're boring in design and almost all look the same because that's the best for the purpose--cargo. Will the cybertruck fit a whole load of lumber in its trunk, similar to how a pickup could be loaded? Can it be used to help your friends move? Pretty and futuristic is worthless if it can't do the job.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
Just Asking Questions?
The Cybertruck has an overall length of 18.6 ft, 0.8 ft shorter than the Ford F-150 Lightning. Despite being shorter overall its 6 ft bed is 0.41 ft longer than the F-150. Width of the bed is practically the same at 4.25 ft vs 4.2 ft. Overall width of the Cybertruck with mirrors extended is practically the same too, at 7.9 ft vs the F-150's 8 ft. However the Cybertruck's payload capacity is significantly higher than the F-150 Lightning, at 2,500 lbs vs 1,656 lbs. This means the Cybertruck can carry a lot more with a roof rack, which is often used by tradespeople who need to carry longer items. Apart from Tesla's own roof rack crossbars there are a 'ton' of aftermarket options, ranging from basic crossbars that can cover the whole rear of the vehicle to fully enclosed canopies with a roof rack on top. Here's a video of a Cybertruck being loaded up with a big stack of timber plus rolls of insulation, presumably for a 'work' job.
I bet the Cybertruck would be much better for moving your friends's stuff than the trailer I bought for my brother to help me move house a few years ago. Anything you put in it has to be ciovered with a tarpaulin and securely tied down, which is a pain. The Cybertruck's tonneau makes keeping stuff secure (and out of sight) a breeze. Taller items can go the front where there's more room under the cover. You can get retractable tonneaus for the F-150 too, but they are usually flat so you can't use them with taller items.
I'm not saying that the Cybertruck is better than a conventional truck for everything, but I also don't think we should just stick to designs from the 1930's and not try variations that might work better for some use cases. I applaud Tesla for innovating in a market that is largely stuck in the past.
As for working 'as a pickup truck should', Wikipedia says:-
Tesla's mission is to 'accelerate the world's transition to sustainable energy'. With more than 85% of truck owners using their vehicles primarily or solely as passenger cars, it makes sense for the Cybetruck to be designed more for 'lifestyle' and personal transportion use than just a 'work truck', especially since trucks are far more polluting than saloon cars. That's the market which needs to be adressed first. If the Cybertruck isn't enough of a 'work truck' for the other 15% it's not a big deal - as Musk said they can do a boring 'conventional' truck later.
Meanwile Tesla is getting experience with innovations such as 48 volt architecture, which reduces the amount of copper wire required to 1/4 for big weight and cost savings, drive by wire which makes for better handling and integration, and 'unconventional' construction techniques such as large castings and structural body panels. In many ways the Cybertruck is a testbed for new technologies. Some ideas may not work out as well as others, but that's what innovation is all about. It's how real progress is made, not sticking with a design from the 1930's because automakers are too afraid to try something new.
He is a top 20 Diablo IV player, he plays it when receiving an update from SpaceX employees, the report indicated how near to disaster the recent impressive catch-the-rocket test came. He does not stop playing when he takes this update. He is in fact concentrating on playing the game and recording an impressive tier 150 run, he was so impressed with his run that he uploaded it to show other players what an incredible player he is - and a top 20 player in Diablo IV is an incredible achievement, one that (unless he has found a way to cheat) takes literally hundreds and hundreds of hours to achieve. Even if you started as the "best player of computer games in the world" it still takes hundreds and hundreds of hours as you are dependent on "drops" of equipment and crafting elements which are semi-random. He also stated that he must concentrate 100% when playing on such a level. Again, he did not stop playing when he was being given an update from SpaceX employees. Whatever else he may be doing he is not paying attention to the running of SpaceX.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
And that's a good thing, right? I mean, the general consensus is that Musk is an idiot who doesn't have a clue about space rockets or running a business, so the more he stays out of it and lets his employees run SpaceX the better, right? Right?
Oh my bad, nothing Musk does is ever right. No matter what it is, someone will always find a way to spin it into being bad.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
You can have a brain that can solve complex problems and still be practically stupid. One of the complex problems smart people can have it being completely self unaware and unable to accept that they can be wrong.And that's a good thing, right? I mean, the general consensus is that Musk is an idiot who doesn't have a clue about space rockets or running a business, so the more he stays out of it and lets his employees run SpaceX the better, right? Right?
Oh my bad, nothing Musk does is ever right. No matter what it is, someone will always find a way to spin it into being bad.
Musk repeatedly gets expectations of the capabilities of his genius wrong. The boring company has achieved little, We Robot was an exercise in putting lipstick on a pig. New sales for Cybertruck are poor. Musk retweets insane conspiracy theories that indicate an unhinged mind not rooted in reality.
Silly Green Monkey
Cowardly Lurking in the Shadows of Greatness
Just Asking Questions because a housemate spotted a Cybertruck at a secondhand dealership and is considering it. The cab has to be large enough to comfortably fit him, the storage has to be big enough to bring home 20' boards and full sheets of plywood.
What a strange post.And that's a good thing, right? I mean, the general consensus is that Musk is an idiot who doesn't have a clue about space rockets or running a business, so the more he stays out of it and lets his employees run SpaceX the better, right? Right?
Oh my bad, nothing Musk does is ever right. No matter what it is, someone will always find a way to spin it into being bad.
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
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I agree that the Cybertruck is doing fairly well and certainly much better than the F-150 Lightning, and that Ford is failing here with its electric vehicle. But your own evidence suggests that Cybertruck is not stealing Ford sales, because the F-150 Lightning sales aren't declining in proportion to the rise in Cybertruck sales.
I would suggest the more likely explanation is that there isn't much of a market for a conventional pickup that happens to be electric, and that Cybertruck is tapping into a market for people who want something different from a conventional pickup.
I Am The Scum
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If he tries to load plywood into the cybertruck, he'll need to leave the tailgate down and put a strap on it. What he actually wants is a truck with a full size bed.
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
Which is largely a thing of the past in the USA, where trucks from all makers are more for replacing the family sedan than they are about hauling cargo.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
The correlation isn't 1:1 and wouldn't be proof be even if it was, so you may be right there. However up to 85% of truck owners probably really want something different - which legacy auto isn't providing. That means Tesla has an opportunity to tap into a market that the old guys can't satisfy. And it seems like the Cybertruck is doing it. For that reason, making it look radically different was actually a genius move (not Musk's genius of course - galaxy brain never had an original idea in his life - or so I have been told).
When Steve Jobs revealed the iPhone in January 2007 everyone was aghast. "What, no buttons - are you mad? That featureless slab is so boring and ugly, and the price! Nobody's going to pay that much. Why can't you make a real smartphone like the Blackberry? A proper 'work' phone, not a silly tech toy for Apple fanboys? Jobs has really blown it this time!". Then sales started ramping up, and the old guys started panicking.
I'm not saying the Cybertruck will repeat the iPhone's success, in fact I'm surpised it's doing as well as it is. However there's no doubt that Musk's idea of a truck that's 'cool' is resonating (with those who aren't reflexively avioding Tesla because they don't like Musk's politics). The truth is, many people do buy trucks in part because they look 'cool'. But the Cybertruck doesn't just look like it came from the future, it is the future. There's more technical innovation in this truck than all the legacy automakers' offerings combined. So looking radically different is good, because you can tell just by looking that there's something special about it. Tesla could do that because they aren't a conventianal automaker, and Musk gave the team the freedom to do unconventional things with it that legacy auto wouldn't dare to do - though I wouldn't be surprised if they copy it.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
He hires somebody in the Phillippines or Cambodia to play for him. As I said before he revealed his l33t build a few months ago, and it was all garbagr tier stuff that was actually designed for different builds than his.
Man doesn't have the attention span for a time sink like D4.
Gulliver Foyle
Philosopher
US pickups aren't actually designed to do the job of pickups, they're too big and their loading beds are too small. What they're designed for is penile replacement therapy for middle aged men.
jeremyp
Illuminator
He wanted the future to look like the future? How come he produced something that looks like it came out of Back to the Future (1985) or Bladerunner (1982). The Cybertruck looks like what people thought the future would look like forty years ago.
The design of the Cybertruck is objectively bad. It's too big, too heavy and too dangerous to other road users and pedestrians. Yes, these criticisms apply to many other trucks too, but Cybertruck seems to have taken these negative attributes to the next level.
Actually, I think most of Tesla's other models look fine. I particularly like the S.
Yeah, whatever. Still, Ford sells more than five times as many trucks a month as Tesla sold in its best quarter.
Marcus
Illuminator
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So many posts on this thread, enumerating the Cybertrucks many faults. It's terrible, it's ugly, surely no one will buy it. And yet, it continues to be the best selling electric truck. It's almost as if people are biased by their dislike for Musk.
a_unique_person
Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning
They were selling the huge backlog of pre-orders. That is now gone, with most people forfeiting their deposits and not proceeding with their order. This is the point where the real sales projections can be made.
Roger Ramjets
Philosopher
It's hard for someone who grew up in the 1960's to keep up with the latest vernacular. In my day something highly admired or exceptionally excellent was called "the cat's pajamas". Then I heard young people talking about stuff being 'cool', which seemed a bit weird but I got used to it. At my age I don't hang around with young people much so I haven't picked up on the words they are now using. Is 'gay' the new 'cool'? Or is being 'cool' now gay?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm trying to make sense of this article about the Cybertruck getting a 'golden steering wheel' award in Germany:-
Oh silly me, it's the Germans. You know they are all gay, right? So when they say cool, it means gay. Which is OK I guess, because in my day 'gay' meant ‘cheerful’, ‘happy’, ‘merry’, or ‘lively’ - originating from the Old Germanic word 'gahi’ which meant ‘fast’ or ‘quick’ - and the Cybertruck certainly is that.
The Great Zaganza
Maledictorian
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I assume Musk will take a big step back from all his companies to run "the Department of Government Efficiency".
It would be deeply unfair to the shareholders otherwise.
It would be deeply unfair to the shareholders otherwise.
Season 7 of Diablo 4 is likely to start 21st January 2025, so Musk will have a couple of weeks to help Trump out before he needs to knuckle down and get some serious playing hours in.
dirtywick
Philosopher
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i'm having trouble making sense of that article too, the thing looks like ◊◊◊◊
dirtywick
Philosopher
- Joined
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yeah, of course. if you have any sense of justice, bad people doing bad thing shouldn't be constantly rewarded. but it is, and it sucks to see that constantly. and you could even say, well he's this great businessman, but he's barely involved in the company. he's got 3 other major companies he also is barely involved in, because there's not enough hours in the day, he's on twitter and apparently diablo all day, and now he's so rich he helped buy an election and is going to be in charge of the "doge" department of government. he's got time for all that, he's rich so he must know. he owns successful companies, must be a genius.
that's ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ ridiculous. and the cybertruck does have a bunch of problems. but yeah, you can come and so oh well he's rich so he's winning. the rich must know best, or they wouldn't be rich.
◊◊◊◊ that idiot.
He's dropped to position 36 in the global league!