• Due to ongoing issues caused by Search, it has been temporarily disabled
  • Please excuse the mess, we're moving the furniture and restructuring the forum categories

[Merged]Does Randi Needs to Apologize or What?

The Professor

Banned
T
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
718
Critical Thinkers

On August 18th My Application for the MDC was received at the JREF headquarters. I am told this is Randi's office and I've spoken with him on the phone there. It was mailed US Postal Service Certified Mail. It has been confirmed and is the truth. Certified Mail Receipt 7007 2560 0000 9957 6717

On August 31st James Randi denies that David Koenig has applied in front of 800 witnesses and a small video camera. It was captured on video tape and is the truth. The pertinent conversation begins at about 2:50 and goes for about 40 seconds. Although interesting, the rest of the video does not apply directly to this post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMrgr1yR3k0

On August 31st Alison Michelle Smith corrects James Randi and tells him that David Koenig in fact HAS applied. It has been confirmed on the video above and by eye witnesses.
( It is reported that the video will be release on the internet)
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=273024&forum=15&start=0

On Sept. 3rd Alison Michelle Smith posts on the JREF site that the Application from David Koenig has been received. It is available to all to see.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122607

On Sept. 4th Jeff Richards reports that in a personal phone call with James Randi, he is told that David Koenig has not applied. He wants answers!
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/search_post.php?topic=273024&forum=15&post=5723154

On Sept. 5th in an interview with Justin Robert Young of Itricks, James Randi denies it again. "A Pack of Lies" Here is the link.
http://itricks.com/randishow/?p=28

How do I get a fair shake here on this site when James Randi himself denies I've even applied?

Critical Thinkers Only

Please note that I have not called any names and I simply want to know "why all the denials" when Alison Michelle Smith herself told Randi I had indeed applied.

Thanks
Dave
 
This is a joke, right? Might I suggest that you spend more time working on your protocol, than attempting to mount a smear campaign against Randi? You've been told over and over (an over) again that Randi has no knowledge of your application until it is complete. As yet, your application is not complete, as you have failed (consistantly) to present a testable protocol.

So...Randi is not lying, nor should he apologise.

Chris
 
So you are able to turn all of science on its head, win yourself a Nobel prize, earn countless millions as a result, but you cant complete your application.
It must be so frustrating for you. I feel for you. I feel sorry for you.
 
In re Sept. 5th, it seems that the comment "a pack of lies" refers to Mr. Callahan and not yourself.

It seems as though you're thinking of this as personally challenging Mr. Randi himself. If you want to do so, don't expect to win the JREF's million - they are not the same thing. You applied to the JREF's challenge, to win you will need to play by their rules.

Judging by what I saw on the video, it seemed that Mr. Randi himself was unaware of your challenge - this seems to be completely germane with the JREF's normal procedures for handling challenge complaints. It seems rather egotistical to expect the supervisor of a staff to completely cut his staff out of the equation purely on your personal account. It seems from the video that the owner of a business saw that his trusted employees had the matter well in hand and completely forgot about the issue, trusting their judgment as he must to retain them on salary.

It seems that what you and Mr. Callahan are really angry about is the idea that Mr. Randi does not seem to care about answering every random challenge that people throw at him. If you really wanted him to take your challenge, take and pass his first - force him to notice you by beating him at his own game.

~ Matt
 
Last edited:
Perhaps you should worry about making a testable claim.
 
Funny how everyone wants to DRINK THE KOOL-AID :)
Just ignore it if the leader of the JREF can't understand what Alison Michelle Smith tells him in public. Then ignore him when he tell folks on the phone and on "Recoreded Podcasts" that it isn't so. Is that why all of you are only changing the subject?

Perhaps it isn't Randi?
Then who is it?

Logically, as a critical thinker someone here is wrong.
Alison Michelle Smith says that I've applied and James Randi says that I haven't. Which one is telling the truth and which one isn't?
Logically, one of the JREF isn't telling the truth, but no one here wants to face up to it. So you try to change the subject.
Who on the JREF is not telling the truth?
James or Alison?
 
MattC said:
In re Sept. 5th, it seems that the comment "a pack of lies" refers to Mr. Callahan and not yourself.

It seems as though you're thinking of this as personally challenging Mr. Randi himself. If you want to do so, don't expect to win the JREF's million - they are not the same thing. You applied to the JREF's challenge, to win you will need to play by their rules.

Judging by what I saw on the video, it seemed that Mr. Randi himself was unaware of your challenge - this seems to be completely germane with the JREF's normal procedures for handling challenge complaints. It seems rather egotistical to expect the supervisor of a staff to completely cut his staff out of the equation purely on your personal account. It seems from the video that the owner of a business saw that his trusted employees had the matter well in hand and completely forgot about the issue, trusting their judgment as he must to retain them on salary.

It seems that what you and Mr. Callahan are really angry about is the idea that Mr. Randi does not seem to care about answering every random challenge that people throw at him. If you really wanted him to take your challenge, take and pass his first - force him to notice you by beating him at his own game.

~ Matt
Click to expand...

Mr. Randi has a Million reasons to try to "Forget" that I've accepted the challenge :)

Alison told him point blank that I had applied!
Between the live attendees and the video there are thousands of witnesses.
 
The Professor said:
Mr. Randi has a Million reasons to try to "Forget" that I've accepted the challenge :)

Alison told him point blank that I had applied!
Between the live attendees and the video there are thousands of witnesses.
Click to expand...
Folks, let me tell you what he is trying to do here.
He would like some notoriety for his act by being able to (falsely)claim that the JREF dropped his application for the Million Dollar Challenge out of fear that he was T*H*E R*E*A*L T*H*I*N*G!! He made sure that his protocol was nowhere near what was required in hopes of speeding his being refused. Instead, the JREF was extremely cooperative, giving him chance after chance to work out a proper protocol(which he had no intention of doing in the first place, of course).
What he is doing now is trying another way to get his "protocol" rejected..by trying, through insult and innuendo, to get the JREF mad enough to kick him out.
I can't wait to see what step #3 is going to be.
 
Trying to change the subject I see. Nice one :)
Nope.
You must stay on track.
Which one of the JREF is not telling the truth?

Or just drink the Kool-Aid :)
 
The Professor said:
Funny how everyone wants to DRINK THE KOOL-AID :)
Just ignore it if the leader of the JREF can't understand what Alison Michelle Smith tells him in public. Then ignore him when he tell folks on the phone and on "Recoreded Podcasts" that it isn't so. Is that why all of you are only changing the subject?

Perhaps it isn't Randi?
Then who is it?

Logically, as a critical thinker someone here is wrong.
Alison Michelle Smith says that I've applied and James Randi says that I haven't. Which one is telling the truth and which one isn't?
Logically, one of the JREF isn't telling the truth, but no one here wants to face up to it. So you try to change the subject.
Who on the JREF is not telling the truth?
James or Alison?
Click to expand...

Okay, the first mistake is, and I am speaking as one who only follows such things tangentially, James Randi is no longer the president of the JREF.
Second, and much more revealing as to the Professor's intent, James Randi is not personally responsible for knowing about the MDC, he has appointed others to oversee the MDC, and it is only those directly involved with the administration of the MDC who have up-to-date knowledge of applicants.
Really, Prof, it's a large orginisation, learn whom to speak to about things. I've never once whined because my postman didn't know the status of my parole hearing.
 
Last edited:
Dave:

Yes, Randi may have made a mistake. But not to worry, because your application has been officially noted here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122607

If you're sincere about taking the challenge, then go ahead and supply what has been asked of you (at that thread linked to above). You seem to be holding things up by not supplying a testable, self-evident claim. The JREF is not holding things up.
 
These little smiling emoticons after references to drinking Kool-Aid are growing tiresome, and are somewhat offensive. I can only presume you are insinuating that we are part of some closed minded cult, such as Heaven's Gate. I'm politely requesting that you cease using the reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

It would be simple enough to write an e-mail to Mr. Randi and ask him about this. Infact, I did just that...and then I deleted it, because I figure that attention is what you want.

We have told you several times that Randi is made aware of the applications once they are complete. I suggest you complete yours before throwing about accusations and trying to divert attention away from your frivolous and incredibly boring MDC "application".

Chris
 
jimtron said:
Dave:

Yes, Randi may have made a mistake. But not to worry, because your application has been officially noted here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122607

If you're sincere about taking the challenge, then go ahead and supply what has been asked of you (at that thread linked to above). You seem to be holding things up by not supplying a testable, self-evident claim. The JREF is not holding things up.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think that the claim is ready to pass the JREF inspection. There are a few people who would like to peruse it before I email it in tomorrow but I am pretty happy with it as it looks now. I've tried to comment about how everything is coming together on my Challenge thread but it is moderated so you won't get to see it until they work on it.
Perhaps I could PM it to you for your examination if you wish before I submit it to the JREF?


Enough distraction.
Back to the topic!
 
Last edited:
The Professor said:
I agree...
Click to expand...

So no need for Randi to apologise then as you where in the wrong and did not provide the information requested.

I hope your 'powers' are stronger then your ability to follow direction
 
Last edited:
GuerrillaMagic said:
These little smiling emoticons after references to drinking Kool-Aid are growing tiresome, and are somewhat offensive. I can only presume you are insinuating that we are part of some closed minded cult, such as Heaven's Gate. I'm politely requesting that you cease using the reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group)

It would be simple enough to write an e-mail to Mr. Randi and ask him about this. Infact, I did just that...and then I deleted it, because I figure that attention is what you want.

We have told you several times that Randi is made aware of the applications once they are complete. I suggest you complete yours before throwing about accusations and trying to divert attention away from your frivolous and incredibly boring MDC "application".

Chris
Click to expand...

First you said I wouldn't apply ... You were Wrong!
Then you said I DIDN'T apply. .. You were Wrong again.
You even said you'd help me if I ever did apply ... Wrong again!
You said I'd never pass the media reqirement ... Wrong again!
Then you said I'd never pass the Accredation stipulation .... Wrong an additional time.
On and On and On ...
Now you are saying that I won't make a Paranormal claim .... Don't you get tired of being WRONG?

Wake Up!!! I'm in it for the long haul!

Bottom Line, and to get back on track.
I DO need people to believe I've applied!
I DON'T need people saying I haven't!
 
SimonD said:
So no need for Randi to apologise then as you where in the wrong and did not provide the information requested.

I hope your 'powers' are stronger then your ability to follow direction
Click to expand...

Brilliant Critical Thinking! :)

Here's your Kool-Aid :) (Just kidding :) )
:cool::cool:

Alison says "He's Applied!" ... Get it?
 
Last edited:
The Professor said:
Just ignore it if the leader of the JREF can't understand what Alison Michelle Smith tells him in public.
Click to expand...

Randi is not the leader of the JREF. Perhaps you should try to focus less on lying and more on not making yourself look like a complete idiot.
 
I believe that JR didn't know about your claim -- as I posed in our profile conversation, I don't think he finds out about Challenges until they reach a sufficiently "interesting" point (i.e., a workable protocol is presented and needs to be vetted by him). Why he didn't consult with his staff before stating that you hadn't applied...well, I don't know. Maybe he just assumed. But I'm absolutely sure that the JREF isn't somehow afraid of you, or trying to suppress you, as you have suggested.

The best way to stick it to JREF, if that is your goal, is to actually demonstrate that something paranormal is going on -- by following the JREF's own rules, focusing on the claim, controlling for all trickery, and in general behaving like a paladin throughout.
 
The Professor said:
"On August 31st James Randi denies that David Koenig has applied in front of 800 witnesses and a small video camera. It was captured on video tape and is the truth. The pertinent conversation begins at about 2:50 and goes for about 40 seconds."
Click to expand...

Here is what I consider the relevant portion of that video:

02:09 Audience Member: "(Unintelligible) there's an individual online, uh, that you may be aware of, who has posted, uhm, you know, his claim and his stipulation to his test and"

02:20 Stage*: "What's his name?"
* "Stage" refers to anyone I can't identify that is speaking from the stage.

02:21 Audience Member: "Jim Callahan. And, and..." (multiple voices) "... and it seems as though you will not take his challenge." "And he has it, and he's had it posted for a long time online."

02:28 Stage: "He's never contacted us."

02:30 Audience Member: "But it's posted online."

02:31 Multiple speakers on stage: "(Unintelligible)"

02:33 James Randi: "He's not answered our challenge."

02:35 Audience Member: "But you said he, you get to write the protocols."

02:37 Stage: "No, he does."

02:38 Audience Member: "Right."

02:39 Stage: "He has not applied."

02:40 Audience Member: "He's written a protocol."

02:41 Stage: "He has not applied for the challenge."

02:42 Audience Member: "And he's challenged you because of the, the quality of the test that you present."

02:48 James Randi: "But he has not applied! He has to fill out the application. He knows where we are!"

02:53 Audience Member: "And what about Slim King, Dave Koenig? I believe he's applied, and you've not responded to him either?"

03:00 James Randi: "No, no, no, these are things that people are saying they have done, these are not things they have done."

03:04 Audience Member: (talking over James Randi) "I think (multiple voices - unintelligible) She smiled when"

03:06 Stage: "We know who Dave Koenig is, he's a friend of Jim Callahan."

03:08 Audience Member: "And so you haven't responded in(?) days, and he has applied, so"

03:11 Stage: "That's not true."

03:12 James Randi(?): "There's nothing to respond to he hasn't applied."

03:13 Alison Smith(?): "We have his", "He has been speaking with Dave actually. He did apply. We have been back and forth communicating with him. He's on his honeymoon right now. We can't negotiate a protocol with him."

03:23 Audience Member: "Mmm, okay, you just hadn't contacted him, from what I understand."

03:26 James Randi(?): "Well, you're wrong." "We're telling you we contacted him." "We'll hold the documentation, and it's, it's free to be seen anytime you want to see it."

03:34 Audience Member: "Right, okay"​

I included the 44 seconds preceding the mention of you in order to illustrate the stream of the conversation. Once Mr. Randi was informed of the existence of your application (at 3:13) he corrects himself (at 3:26).

The Professor said:
On Sept. 5th in an interview with Justin Robert Young of Itricks, James Randi denies it again.
Click to expand...
At 12:48, paraphrasing the query made at DragonCon, James Randi says, "Well, Jim (unintelligible) has taken your challenge..." -- just before the "pack of lies" quote you used.

At no time during that interview is the name "David Koenig" uttered.
 
Sounds to me lthat at worst there was a failure of communications somewhere.

This has been known to happen before in the world.

Or it may simply be that JR himself doesn't deal with MDC applications. Never having been to FLorida, I have no knowledge of how the office is organised, but I had the impression MDC applications are mainly handled by volunteers.
In case there exists any confusion, let's repeat the oft-stated fact that the JREF forum and JREF are not the same thing and queries about JREF must be addressed to JREF (though there's no obvious reason they can't be reported / copied here).

I take it "The Professor" and David Koenig are the same person?
 
The Professor said:
Funny how everyone wants to DRINK THE KOOL-AID :)
Just ignore it if the leader of the JREF can't understand what Alison Michelle Smith tells him in public. Then ignore him when he tell folks on the phone and on "Recoreded Podcasts" that it isn't so. Is that why all of you are only changing the subject?

Perhaps it isn't Randi?
Then who is it?

Logically, as a critical thinker someone here is wrong.
Alison Michelle Smith says that I've applied and James Randi says that I haven't. Which one is telling the truth and which one isn't?
Logically, one of the JREF isn't telling the truth, but no one here wants to face up to it. So you try to change the subject.
Who on the JREF is not telling the truth?
James or Alison?
Click to expand...

Bolding by me.

You sir, are not a critical thinker. If you were, you would be familiar with logical fallacies. One of them is called false dichotomy.

But since this thread is nothing more than a smoke screen intended to wast time, that is not a surprise.
 
The Professor said:
Mr. Randi has a Million reasons to try to "Forget" that I've accepted the challenge :)
Click to expand...

The first one being that so far your claim is completely indistinct from any of the thousands of other random ones that get sent in. Putting it a slightly different way, until a protocol is actually agreed upon, you are no more important to them than any of the other hundreds of people who've applied for the test in the past, and then have been unable to properly define what they can do. RemieV has given you some preferential treatment due to the time frame you specified, so at the moment the score looks like you owe them one. (due to your preference for adding emoticons, I think I'll try out this one: :cool:)

Alison told him point blank that I had applied!
Between the live attendees and the video there are thousands of witnesses.
Click to expand...

There are even more witnesses who are waiting for you to get to work on this claim of yours. I still hold out some faith you'll get a testable one.

The claim is your ultimate trump card here, Mr. Koenig. So far the betting seems to be that it will never be tested. Beat the odds in this regard and you'll shut up the vast majority of the disbelievers here (or at least make them find other ways to complain). Until about that point, the impression one gets is more of a fish out of water rather than someone with a serious claim.

~ Matt
 
Last edited:
From that transcript, I can see how you could misconstrue (I won't say twist. Never attribute to malice what can be explained by stupidity.) what was said.
 
The Professor, you owe Randi and everyone on this forum and everyone at JREF an apology, particularly Alison. Very likely you owe everyone in the world an apology. You need to apologize to each and every person in the world individually. You may start now.

You are a disingenuous charlatan. I think what you're doing here is no better than trolling. Your "claim" reads as being no better than a stage trick. Your "protocol" is non-existant. You refuse to acknowledge suggestions for a properly worded claim or protocol.

You attribute this to Alison in reference to your claim:
The Professor said:
I believe your words were ..... "the claims put forward, quite honestly, friggin' ridiculous."
Click to expand...
trying to give the impression that she was calling YOUR claim "friggin' ridiculous", when you knew that wasn't true. CZ responded with the correct quote in context. Refer back to the challenge thread for it. Well, never mind, you don't seem to refer to it for much of anything except repeating your non-claim and hand waving.

Stop hand waving:), stop posturing:), stop throwing up more obstacles:), stop whining:), stop strawmanning:), stop starting new threads:), stop putting smilies after every sentence:).
Start working on your claim, start working on your protocol. You'll be much more productive.
 
The Professor said:
First you said I wouldn't apply ... You were Wrong!
Click to expand...

You're not particularly well schooled in playground etiquette are you David? I also recall saying that should you ever apply, I expected you to take every opportunity to dodge the challenge, and that your intention was to use the MDC as a publicity stunt. So far, the majority of the people on this forum seem to agree with me, and you've done nothing to change our mind. Infact I'd go as far as to say that with every day that goes past without a testable protocol, you are proving my point.

The Professor said:
Then you said I DIDN'T apply. .. You were Wrong again.
Click to expand...

Nope...read the title of your MDC protocol thread that I started. "Psychic Samurai Applies For MDC...apparently...". Never said you hadn't applied, but on several occasions asked you to provide evidence of your application, before the JREF had acknowledged it.

The Professor said:
You even said you'd help me if I ever did apply ... Wrong again!
Click to expand...

You haven't asked me for any help, so hardly wrong. What do you need?

The Professor said:
You said I'd never pass the media reqirement ... Wrong again!
Click to expand...

Incorrect. I said I personally didn't believe you had met the required media presence for the JREF MDC. Like has been said time and time again, JREF forum members do not speak for the JREF. Even now I'm inclined to believe that your "performances" on radio as a "mentalist" (your wording) aren't adequate, and the JREF is merely cutting you some slack

The Professor said:
Then you said I'd never pass the Accredation stipulation .... Wrong an additional time.
Click to expand...

Nope...again. I said that you hadn't met the accreditation requirements, not that you wouldn't.

The Professor said:
On and On and On ...
Now you are saying that I won't make a Paranormal claim .... Don't you get tired of being WRONG?
Click to expand...

Nope...AGAIN. I said that you hadn't submitted a testable protocol, which is merely echoing what RemieV and the JREF Forum members have said.

The Professor said:
Wake Up!!! I'm in it for the long haul!
Click to expand...

No you're not. You're in it for the publicity. This event will happen on October 31st with or without the JREF's involvement. But the event will be by no means paranormal. Your application for the JREF MDC is designed to fail so that you can claim that they were scared to test you. I predicted it on the first page of your protocol thread. All I have to do is sit back and wait for November 1st for my prediction to come true.

Chris
 
Last edited:
The Professor said:
I DO need people to believe I've applied!
I DON'T need people saying I haven't!
Click to expand...


Why do you need people to believe that you've applied?

Whether people believe you or not, you have sent in an application. You haven't offered a protocol (which, to me, means that you have not applied) but so what? When you do offer a protocol, negotiate changes and sign it with the JREF, you will have applied. You will be tested when you do these things. You will win a million dollars when you pass the test after you negotiate the protocol you have yet to submit.

None of that hinges on anyone believing you applied.

So why do you need people to believe you have?

Is it because the publicity is more important to you than the results of a properly controlled test?
 
Last edited:
I think the 2nd post pretty much covers it.

Prof sent in a partial application, staffers were in communication with him about it -- it turned out to be an untestable claim, btw -- but there was no reason for Randi to be aware of it, even if he were still head of the JREF, because it hadn't yet passed muster (and still hasn't).

Even now, Prof does not have a submitted claim which can be considered for the Challenge.

So although some of the staffers knew about his partial application at the time, there was absolutely no reason for it to be on Randi's radar, or Phil's.
 
The Professor said:
First you said I wouldn't apply ... You were Wrong!
Then you said I DIDN'T apply. .. You were Wrong again.
You even said you'd help me if I ever did apply ... Wrong again!
You said I'd never pass the media reqirement ... Wrong again!
Then you said I'd never pass the Accredation stipulation .... Wrong an additional time.
On and On and On ...
Now you are saying that I won't make a Paranormal claim .... Don't you get tired of being WRONG?
Click to expand...

I'm surprised you're not running for president. You put both McCain and Obama's campaigns to shame when it comes to looking for any sentence, in or out of context, that you can twist to make it look like something it isn't.

The Professor said:
I DO need people to believe I've applied!
Click to expand...

What difference does it make what "people" believe? It makes no difference how many people believe you've submitted an application, or how many believe that you can actually win the challenge. The only thing that counts is getting your challenge accepted and getting a protocol together that you and the JREF agree to. And those seem to be about the only two things you're not concerned about.

The Professor said:
I DON'T need people saying I haven't!
Click to expand...

Why not? People saying that you haven't doesn't change anything. Randi saying that you haven't doesn't change anything- he's not personally involved with your challenge at this point.

If you were serious you'd be spending more time getting your application written and getting protocols done and much less time whining on internet forums.
 
The only possible leeway I can give the Prof is that Randi may have said JREF hadn't received the app when he might have been more accurate in saying he hadn't been personally informed of it. That's all. No biggie, and I'd have to scrutinize the videos and other records better than I have to even support that theory. It's certainly not worth anyone's time.

So, Professor, why don't you just concentrate on winning the big bux? Then you can afford to take out a huge billboard in Fort Lauderdale and trumpet your claims: that you won, and that Randi is a big fat liar. Nyaah, nyaah, nyaah.

And you'll be able to fund the lawyers when you get sued.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom