General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

[000063]

Actually I'll need something authored between the end of the war and the 1950s.

I think you need a good deal more than that.

No and I stopped reading comic books when I was 12.

So you're ignoring evidence to move the goalposts.

Off topic.

Once again, I scrolled down just waiting to see what one-liner you responded with.

But hey, continue to pretend to know the contents of books you haven't read and refuse to read.

 

[TSR]

Off topic.

But your lies about "The Last Days" are.

Riiiiiiiight.

 

[TheRedWorm]

Remembering that the overpowered captives had to be guarded 24/7, how many German soldiers would it take to overpower 3 million Jewish people over a 3 year period?

Did the German soldiers travel with their captives? And then do no soldiering till they captured more Jewish people?

There are two thousand page books answering your questions in quite considerable detail:
...<snip>...

Actually I'll need something authored between the end of the war and the 1950s.

No problem.
...<snip>...

Off topic.

Can there be any doubt left that Clay is simply trolling here?

 

[carlitos]

None.

 

[SnakeTongue]

The people to whom you link above were Orthodox Jews.

There were virtually no Orthodox Jews in Germany in 1933. It was the home of Reform Judaism, for one thing, not to mention an enormous number of Jews who were either completely nonobservant or who had converted to other faiths. More than half of the German Jews who married in 1932 married non-Jews.

You forgot "I'm not an self-hate Jew but..."

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8116679&postcount=9971

A mere coincidence...

Self-hating Jew

In German

The origins of the concept of Jewish self-hatred lie in the mid-nineteenth century feuding between German Orthodox Jews of the Wrocław seminary and Reform Jews.[5] Each side accused the other of betraying Jewish identity,[1] the Orthodox Jews accusing the Reform Jews of identifying more closely with German Protestantism and German nationalism than with Judaism.[5] According to John P. Jackson Jr., the concept developed in the late nineteenth century in German Jewish discourse as "a response of German Jews to popular anti-Semitism that primarily was directed at Eastern European Jews." For German Jews, the Eastern European Jew became the "bad Jew".​

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-hating_Jew

 

[A'isha]

We now return you to "Holocaust Denier Non-Sequitur Theater"...

 

[SnakeTongue]

1. Censuses
2. personal identification papers or internal passports with entries for religion
3. forcible registrations of Jews
   [*]asking men to drop their trousers
4. ignoring the protests of non-Jews with big noses
5. denunciations by neighbours
6. 'Jew hunters' (in Germany and the Netherlands) and szmalcowniki (in Poland), paid to identify Jews

Most European countries conducted censuses which asked for religion, and often had personal ID systems which included such information. The Soviet Union's internal passports specified nationality, and Jews were one of the many Soviet nationalities so recorded.

France, like the US, had not traditionally asked for religion on censuses, but after the German occupation, Jews were ordered to register. This was some time before anyone was deported. Despite exposing themselves immediately to a risk of denunciation or police arrest if found out by some other means. quite a large proportion did not register, which meant that they were harder to catch, but this didn't forestall many from falling into Nazi hands. Foreign-born Jews were more easily rounded up and identified. Overall, only 25% of Jews living in France were deported, the rest escaped into hiding or over the Spanish and Swiss borders. Quite a large proportion of the deportees from France came from various roundups in 1941, when foreign Jews were arrested especially in Paris, then the infamous Vel d'Hiv roundup of mid-1942, then further manhunts and roundups through the remainder of the occupation, including after November 1942 and September 1943 when Nazi control expanded into Vichy and then into formerly Italian-occupied territory.

Belgium was similar in not really pushing religion in registration systems, and had a fairly low deportation rate despite the same combination of forced registration and manhunts. There were sizable communities of very traditional-looking Orthodox Jews in Antwerp and elsewhere that could be caught like fish in a barrel once the Nazis wanted to start deporting people.

The Netherlands had a very efficient and comprehensive bureaucracy which included personal ID papers specifying religion, as well as registers of residents much as in Germany. They also conducted censuses asking for religion and the last one had come long before anyone suspected Holland would be occupied. In 1941 Jews were ordered to register and could hardly avoid this, again a year before deportations. Still, quite large numbers tried to go into hiding, but the total deported was better than 80%.

Was the persecution of the Jews by Third Reich exclusively sorted out by religion identification? How this explain the allegations that Jews were persecuted by the Third Reich due a racial discrepancy among Jews and Aryans?

Among the latter, the Jews were considered to be the chief enemy. They were represented by the National Socialists as an 'anti-race' that had come into being through negative selection, and that had, through assimilation, deeply penetrated the German 'national body'.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/genocide/racial_state_01.shtml

(...) many people felt threatened by the Jewish race, they feared foreign intrusion into their homes and nations. it is easy to see how a strong leader, such as Hitler, was able to take advantage of peoples emotions and utilize their fear to unite them, he plotted them against one enemy, who they could attribute as the the cause for everything they despised. (...) Many Germans blamed their defeat in world War I, on the Jewish population. They believed the Jews were leading a World conspiracy. Following World War I, there was an intensified commitment to racial nationalism. The German’s strong belief in the superiority of their own race gave way to an exclusive form of government. The state could take away the rights of anyone who they believed were not deserving. http://www.ic.arizona.edu/ic/mcbride/ws200/moss-jewc.htm​

In Poland, Jews could be identified by their dress and appearance. They were quite obviously Jews because they belonged to an entirely different culture to other nationalities, and mostly spoke their own language, Yiddish. While many also spoke Polish, they often did so with an accent. This wasn't as noticeable to the Germans but it was to Poles, many of whom were willing to denounce in exchange for payments of sugar or cash, or because they were antisemites. Nonetheless, despite being highly visible and thus easily identified, 10-20% of Polish Jews were either assimilated or could become so. Large numbers fled at the start of the war, about 300,000. They went to Soviet territory where of course they had to register and be identified as Jews, so could be caught once more when the Nazis invaded in 1941. The ones who remained behind in western Poland frequently tried to go underground or flee to the forests, to the tune of 10-20% in some districts, but this did not prevent many from being caught by patrols in the countryside or denounced or winkled out of their hiding places, which almost invariably meant the death of their Polish rescuers, several thousand of whom died for aiding Jews.

So there was not only the Germans which had engaged into persecute the Jews. Are there any other nations which helped to capture the Jews?

There were also some gender differences which became apparent, since Jewish women didn't have the problem of being identified as circumcised, and many had been sent to Polish schools since it was traditional to send Jewish boys to yeshivas if there was any money in the family, and this meant that Jewish women spoke better Polish. Many also had a more 'Aryan' appearance, especially the younger women. Obviously, the fact that no system of registration was perfect meant that quite a few did survive. Which is why we have films such as The Pianist, and why the director of that film also survived the war in hiding as a young child placed with a Christian family.

How much is "quite few"?

SOURCES - a small selection, needless to say Jews in France during World War II / Renée Poznanski. Hanover, N.H. : University Press of New England in Association with the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum ; Waltham, Mass. : Brandeis University Press, 2001 Moore, Bob, Survivors. Jewish Self-Help and Rescue in Nazi-Occupied Western Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2010 Paulsson, Gunnar S., Secret city : the hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945. New Haven : Yale University Press, c2002. Krakowski, Shmuel, The War of the Doomed. Jewish Armed Resistance in Poland, 1942-1944. New York, 1984 Seltzer, William, ‘Population Statistics, the Holocaust and the Nuremberg Trials’, Population and Development Review 24/3, 1998, pp.511-552 Engelking, Barbara, Jest taki piekny sloneczny dzien... Losy Zydow szukajacych ratunku na wsi polskiej 1942-1945. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badan nad Zaglada Zydow, 2011 Grabowski, Judenjagd. Polowanie na Zydow 1942-1945. Studium dziejow pewnego powiatu. Warsaw: Stowarzyszenie Centrum Badan nad Zaglada Zydow, 2011

Let me guess? I have to buy this books? Not one single source which I can look freely into the statistics?

 

[SnakeTongue]

then why did you assert the following

without having the slightest shred of evidence to back up your claims?

Because I typed "I will try to guess".

It means to be a guess.

 

[SnakeTongue]

I'm not saying it's wrong because some other denier already said it. I'm saying it was already wrong when deniers first said it, and since you're merely copying what they said, you're not only wrong, you don't even understand what you're wrong about.

I guess I understand better than you do.

Like the whole "office code" thing, which came from Alvarez misreading one of Weckert's sources, the real historian Mathias Beer.

That's why you're backtracking and scrambling around and lying about these "other documents", because you simply repeated the claim before looking into it (which you've already admitted to doing, by the way).

Correct. That is why I am "backtracking and scrambling". I am not your 24h/7d a week employee. I do things at my rate, including spend time verifying every piece of the document you had presented.

It certainly can't translate it with any degree of accuracy. That's why no one but amateurs and crackpots with an axe to grind relies on machine translation as any kind of definitive translation. Especially when trying to prove the document was a forgery!

That "amateurs and crackpots" includes you?

(...) I'm not even sure what your problem with McFee's translation of "Sonderwagen" is, since nothing in Google Translate contradicts it. (...)

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8126771&postcount=10189

He does, explicitly, and in several places. I've already shown you where and how.

No, you did not showed any "explicitly" phrase from Walter Rauff interrogation which contradicts the affidavit.

You mean you will try to find documents referenced by other deniers that you can try and claim were the documents you used to make your nonexistent "comparison".

No, I did not mean that.

Because, and let's not forget, this is exactly what you highlighted about the office code:

[qimg]http://i479.photobucket.com/albums/rr157/antpogo/officecode.jpg[/qimg]

You said it was "incomplete" because it was missing something after the II D (Alvarez said it should have been II D 3, but he was doubly wrong because "II D 3" never actually existed as a RSHA Referat at any point, only II D 3a and II D 3b).

You never said the II D part was wrong, as you're now trying to imply by claiming Rauff was not head off that office in March 1942. You said it should have been "II D ?", indicating something should have been in that space (the same way you marked the missing parts in the year on the document as "???2").

What's supposed to be in that space you marked with a ?, SnakeTongue? Why have you been unable to answer this simple question for weeks now?

1. Document II D Rf/Hb

6. Marz 2.

II D Rf/Hb

1.) Schreiben

An das

krim. tech. Institut

beim Reichskriminalpolizeiamt



Berlin.





2. Document S-IV D-5o5/42g-451

Abschrift!

z.Zt. Feldkommando-Stelle

den 7.Dezember 1942

Der Reichsfuhrer SS

und Chef der Deutschen Polizei

S-IV D-5o5/42g-451 (ausl.Arb.)

Geheim!

An

alle Staatspolizei(leit)stellen pp.



3. Document Kdo. g4 (Adj.) Nr. 7 II/42 (g.).

Berlin, den 7. Juni 1942.

Der Chef der Ordnungspolizei

Kdo. g4 (Adj.) Nr. 7 II/42 (g.).

Betr.: Überführung und Staatsbegräbnis des SS Obergruppenfuhrers H e y d r i c h .



4. Document 2 F 2/3 - Mi/Da -

Der Generalkomissar in Riga

Riga, den 31.Dezember 1942.

An Den

Herrn Gebietskommissar

- Arbeitsverwaltung

Riga, Libau, Mitau, Wolmar, Dunaburg.

Betrifft: Meine Abteilung [III e] (ASO)

Fachgebiet 2: Arbeitseinsatz;

2 F 2/3 - Mi/Da -

hier: Begriff "Ostarbeiter".



5. Document IV B 4 a - 847/41

Berlin, den 25, Januar 1942.

Der Chef der Sicherheitspolizei

und des SD

IV B 4 a - 847/41

An

die Befehlshaber der Sichersitepolizei und des SD,

(...)

gez. H e y d r i c h



Evaluation

The incomplete date of the document 1 is the first sign of inconsistency when compared with other documents. The incomplete date leads the interpreter to guess that “???” is “194”. However, that is not the only inconsistency. Dates in the German Third Reich letters were generally produced with the prefix “den” (document 2), sometimes including the name of the city (document 3) where the document was issued.

Additional signs of inconsistency are noticed on the sending office code. Since the author of the document deal with a specific subject, the “?” should be the number/letter representing the department responsible for the subject discussed in the document:

II D 1 (Funk-, Foto- und Filmwesen) SS-Sturmbannführer und Polizeirat Reiner Gottstein

II D 2 (Fernschreib- und Fernsprechwesen): SS-Sturmbannführer und Polizeirat Walter

II D 3 a (Kraftfahrwesen der Sipo): SS-Hauptsturmführer und Hauptmann der Schutzpolizei Friedrich Pradel (Mitarbeiter vom Oktober 1941 bis September 1942 August Becker als Inspekteur für die im Osten eingesetzten Gaswagen)

II D 3 b (Kraftfahrwesen des SD): SS-Hauptsturmführer Willi Gast, SS-Untersturmführer Heinrich

II D 4 (Waffenwesen): SS-Sturmbannführer und Polizeirat Erich Lutter

II D 5 (Flugwesen): SS-Sturmbannführer und Major der Schutzpolizei Georg Leopold

II D 6 (Bewirtschaftung der technischen Fonds der Sipo und des SD): Polizeirat Adolf Kempf

http://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichssicherheitshauptamt#section_2​

Document 5 is an example of a document produced by a specific department and signed by a high rank official.

The serial identification of the document 1 was produced by handwriting while in all other documents it was produced by typewriting. A comparison of the sending office code pattern of document 1 with the header in the document 4 reveals an underlining contradiction. The document 1 uses the pattern

X X A/B

to identify the sending office code, while the document 4 uses a similar pattern

X X X/X - A/B -

as serial identification.

Document 1 also differs from all others documents due the absence of the official stamp used to track documents.

Summary

- An analysis has already presented signs of forgery on the document 1.

- The supposedly author of the document 1 clearly define in an affidavit and an interrogation that he was not part of the sending office when the document was theoretically issued.

- Comparison with other official documents from the German Third Reich offices reveals evident discrepancies on the document 1 header.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Apparently Grima still fails to grasp Rauff's letter of March 26th 1942.
Your deconstruction of AntPogo's "deception" falls flat on its face as said letter talks quite obviously of Sonderwagen, quite obviously states the offer to use one of those at Mauthausen when it becomes available and also states that the Mauthausen camp should procure the Kohlenoxyd. Were you reading something else perchance?

Wrong.

The letter is directed to the "V D (Kriminaltechnisches Institut der Sicherheitspolizei)".

1.) Schreiben
An das krim. tech. Institut beim Reichskriminalpolizeiamt
Berlin.

http://www.holocaust-history.org/19420326-rauff-sonderwagen/​

The "V D (Kriminaltechnisches Institut der Sicherheitspolizei)" have nothing to do with supposedly executions in concentration camps.

Or are you still relying on some third party telling you what it means instead of reading it yourself?

I did a third party translation and read it word by word.

 

[Moss]

Duh. Reading comprehension fail on your part. Just because it happens to be addressed to the KTI it does not mean that the part about Mauthausen is wrong. It just happens to be not directly addressed to Mauthausen.
And the KTI has a lot to do with executions, it's the institute that experimented with methods of murder. But then again I'm not surprised you did not know that. You may want to read up on Widmann and Brack.

 

[SnakeTongue]

So, if he became head of II D upon his return from the Navy in early 1941, which his Chile deposition, then he couldn't exactly have only been named head of II D in May of 1942, now could he?

No, it contradicts his 1945 statement. It's perfectly in line with his Chile statement.

It shows that everything you claimed was "wrong" about the not-forged letter, from Rauff's position as head of II D in March 1942 to Pradel's rank being listed as Major, is in fact completely correct.

That documents, which your failed to provide a link, have nothing to do with the time frame of the letter.

In the original German, Rauff says "Als Heydrich als Protektor nach Prag gegangen war, habe ich ihn dorthin begleitet, um das dortige technische Nachrichtenwesen zu organisieren."

Which is a reference to his duties as head of VI F, Technische Hilfsmittel fuer den Nachrichtendienst im Ausland (which, if you remember the Geschaeftsverteilungsplan des Reichssicherheitshauptamtes of March 1941, he was made head of at the same time he was made head of II D). He was in charge of the technical matters of the foreign intelligence network being organized by Heydrich specfically there in Prague ("das dortige technische Nachrichtenwesen").

Note the use of the word "Hilfsmittel" in VI F's office name, too, which you claim McFee "mistranslated" in the March 1942 letter.

Same word in different contexts.

Now answer my question - why did he travel back to Berlin so often, after he accompanied Heydrich to Prague?

I have already showed to you what the testimonies indicates. Everything beyond this point is mere speculation.

No, I'm placing the letter in its proper historical context, and comparing it to what all the other documentation and testimony says was happening with and around the things described in the letter.

Which is why you're desperately trying to remove the letter from its context, so you can ignore all of that.

You do not even know what the "things described in the letter" really means to compare with "other documentation and testimony ".

I am not desperately, you are.

No, I'm saying that the only thing the author of the letter has to do with the garrison doctor it to say "refer to the attached procedures from the garrison doctor."

Your admission contradicts the SS hierarchy:

The SS Standortarzt [garrison doctor], who was officially independent of the camp commandant and answerable directly to the SS Economic and Administrative Office, was responsible for hygiene and the medical aspects of the camp.

http://en.mauthausen-memorial.at/​

The letter is not for the "Amt III (Deutsche Lebensgebiete – SD-Inland)", the only office which would require the author to report about procedures required by the garrison doctor of the Mauthausen concentration camp.

You're the one trying to use this to falsely discredit the letter by claiming the author is somehow messing with the garrison doctor's proper chain of command. Because the author of the letter is doing no such thing, and you're pursuing an irrelevant red herring in an effort to distract from your utter failure to answer some simple questions about your so-called "analysis" of the document.

No, I am not trying to discredit the letter. I am exposing its forgery.

Really? Then explain how Rauff could claim in 1945 to say he was in charge of II D for a couple months way back in 1940 and wasn't head of II D again until May 1942...when all the actual evidence shows that he was made head of II D as early as March 1941, and kept that position all the way until he left for North Africa in Summer 1942?

Because that, SnakeTongue, is a contradiction.

That is not:

(...) During the Polish campaign I was in Berlin. (...)

(...) I was chief of this technical section from February 1940 until March 1940. (...)

(...) Heydrich had told me that thereafter I could for some time go back to the Navy. From the beginning of 1940 onward I thus was with the navy for at least a year, clearing mines in the Channel. (...)

(...) From May 1940 to May 1941 I was in the German navy. (...)

(...) In the first months of 1941 I was called back to Berlin. As they told me, Heydrich himself had requested me from Raeder. I now became head of division II D at the RSHA. In this division all technical matters were regulated. The division II D (technology) consisted of 6 or 7 sections. (...) When Heydrich went to Prague as a Protector I accompanied him there to organize the local news network. During this time I often traveled between Berlin and Prague. (...)

(...) From September 1941 to May 1942 I was in Prague. I then became chief of the section again from May 1942 to June 1942. (...)

(...) As far as I remember I stayed at the RSHA another 3 - 4 months after Heydrich's death. (...)​

http://nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/people/r/rauff.walter/Rauff-deposition-translation

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/2348-ps.asp

 

[ddt]

Was the persecution of the Jews by Third Reich exclusively sorted out by religion identification? How this explain the allegations that Jews were persecuted by the Third Reich due a racial discrepancy among Jews and Aryans?

Nick Terry mentioned people being selected for having a big nose, so there you go.

But really, religion is a great proxy: there were hardly any converts to Judaism, so you could safely say that every religious Jew was a "racial Jew". And OTOH, there were few converts from Judaism to other religions - at least outside Germany. Sure, you miss the odd Marx or Mendelssohn turned Christian or Luxemburg turned atheist, but maybe some neighbour is so helpful to denounce them.

So there was not only the Germans which had engaged into persecute the Jews. Are there any other nations which helped to capture the Jews?

Denouncers could be found everywhere, not only in Poland but also in, say, the Netherlands. There were (monetary) rewards for that.

The only other state that wholesale persecuted Jews was Antonescu's Romania. Finland deported 8 Jewish refugees to Germany, then stopped this practice for heavy protests. Mussolini's Italy and Horthy's Hungary refused to deport their Jews to Germany or to persecute them themselves.

 

[mushy]

Regarding Auschwitz, are we sure the numbers are correct

From the information i can find online, it says it was operational from early 1942 to late 1944

So lets say, 2.5 years.

Now while 3000000 died, apparently 2.5 million were killed in gas chambers.

Now, when you work that out, that works out to one person killed every 31 seconds constantly for 2.5 years.

How is that pace sustainable?

Not saying it didnt happen, just that its a very high rate to keep up for so long.

 

[TSR]

Don't forget the Ukrainians...

 

[SpringHallConvert]

Of course we're not sure the numbers are correct, but it's all part of the myth that must be sustained so that Zionist crimes around the world can continue without too much dissent for fear of being labeled as "anti-Semitic".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0kWAqZxJVE

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

It was actually 1.5 million at Auschwitz from what I've read.

Not terribly difficult given that the rwandan genocide was 800,000 in 100 days, a far faster rate of killing from a much less technologically advanced and organized band of racist sociopaths.

 

[The Dark Lord]

Hutus murdered Tutsis at a higher rate using machettes. But that was probably faked too, right?

 

[timhau]

From the information i can find online, it says it was operational from early 1942 to late 1944

So lets say, 2.5 years.

Now while 3000000 died, apparently 2.5 million were killed in gas chambers.

Get better sources. Your number is 1-1.5 million too high.

Still, it is an monstrously impressive rate. It's not called murder on an industrial scale for nothing.

 

[Clayton Moore]

Get better sources. Your number is 1-1.5 million too high.

Still, it is an monstrously impressive rate. It's not called murder on an industrial scale for nothing.

What did they do with the bodies? Pile them up?