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General Holocaust Denial Discussion Part II

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Clayton Moore said:
Actually I'll need something authored between the end of the war and the 1950s.
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Nice dodge. When presented with evidence, redefine what constitutes "acceptable" evidence. Repeat until you are finally able to eliminate all evidence, then proclaim that you've won.
 
thedopefishlives said:
Nice dodge. When presented with evidence, redefine what constitutes "acceptable" evidence. Repeat until you are finally able to eliminate all evidence, then proclaim that you've won.
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And then, like SnakeTongue, after making a declaration, stall to assemble your documents, note that you do not have the appropriate resources to perform such research, ignore direct questions you're asked, look for the Internet links where you say you obtained the documents, and promise to show your evidence with references . . . sometime later . . .

These guys are so transparent . . .
 
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thedopefishlives said:
Nice dodge. When presented with evidence, redefine what constitutes "acceptable" evidence. Repeat until you are finally able to eliminate all evidence, then proclaim that you've won.
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Like I'm going to believe some Spielberg type fantasy conjured up 60 years after it was supposed have taken place.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Like I'm going to believe some Spielberg type fantasy conjured up 60 years after it was supposed have taken place.
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You already do. We, on the other hand, believe real scholarship - which generally improves in accuracy over time, as more and more data points come to light.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Like I'm going to believe some Spielberg type fantasy conjured up 60 years after it was supposed have taken place.
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You've already read the books Nick suggested? And you think they're like Hollywood? Wow, crazy stuff.
 
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i'm gonna leave you boys to it and put mr hate speech here on ignore. I appreciate the good work you are all doing, but frankly this thread just gets me irritated and I don't feel I have the scholarship to advance the discussion.
 
LemmyCaution said:
You've already read the books Nick suggested? And you think they're like Hollywood? Wow, crazy stuff.
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Are you ready to admit Spielberg's Academy Award winning The Last Days was a Holocaust fabrication? How do you think Spielberg should punished?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Actually I'll need something authored between the end of the war and the 1950s.
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No problem.

  1. Lubetzki, J., La condition des juifs en France sous l’occupation allemande, 1940-1945. La legislation raciale. Paris, 1945
  2. Sarrants, R. and Tager, P. (eds), Les Juifs sous l’occupation. Recueil des textes francais et allemande, 1940-1944. Paris, 1945
  3. Dokumenty obviniaiut : sbornik dokumentov o chudovishchnykh zverstvakh germanskikh vlasteĭ na vremenno zakhvachennykh imi sovetskikh territoriiakh. vyp. 2. Moskva: OGIZ, Gos. izd-vo polit. lit-ry, 1945
  4. Datner, Szymon, Walka i zagłada białostockiego ghetta. Łódź : [Centralna Żydowska-Komisja Históryczna], 1946.
  5. Szternfinkiel, Natan Eliasz.: Zagłada Żydów Sosnowca. Katowice : [Centralna Żydowska Komisja Historyczna] , 1946
  6. Kermish, Joseph.: Powstanie w Getcie Warszawskim (19.4.-16.5.1943). Łódź : [s.n.] , 1946.
  7. Borwicz, Michal et al, W trzecia rocznice zaglady ghetta w Krakowie (13.3.43-13.3.46). Krakow, 1946
  8. Dabrowski, Jan, Krakow pod rzadami wroga 1939-1945. Krakow, 1946
  9. Friedman, Philip, 1901-1960.: Zaglada Żydów lwowskich : w okresie okupacji niemieckiej.. Wyd. 2., rozsz. Munich, 1947.
  10. Moszynski R. and Policha, L., Lublin w okresie okupacji (1939-1944). Lublin, 1948
  11. Lévai, Jenö, Zsidósors Európában. Budapest: Magyar Téka, [c1948]
  12. Molho, Michael et al, In Memoriam. Hommage aux victimes juives des nazis en Grece. Vols 1-III Salonika, 1948ff
  13. Weinreich, Max, Hitler’s Professors. New York, 1946
  14. Carp, Matatias, Cartea Neagra – Suferintele Evreilor din Romania 1940-1944, 3 Vols, Bucharest, 1946-1948
  15. IMT, The Trial against the Main War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945- 1946
  16. Nazi conspiracy and aggression / Office of United States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality. Washington : U.S. G.P.O, 1946 - 1947. 11 vols
  17. Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland (ed.), German crimes in Poland, Warsaw 1946.
  18. Borwicz, Michał, Nella Rost and Józef Wulf (eds.), Dokumenty zbrodni i męczeństwa . Książ ki Wojewódzkiej Żydowskiej Komisij Historicznej w Krakowie No. 1. Cracow, 1945
  19. Blumental, Natan (ed), Dokumenty i materialy z csasow okupacji niemieckiej w Polsce. Tom 1: Obozy. Lodz, 1946
  20. Kermisz, Józef (ed), Dokumenty i Materiały do dziejów okupacji niemieckiej w Polce, Vol. II: "Akcje" i "Wysiedlenia", Warsaw - Lodz- Krakow 1946
  21. Eisenbach, Artur (ed), Dokumenty i materialy do dziejow okupacji niemieckiej w Polsce. Bd 3: Getto lodzkie. Warsaw, Lodz, Krakow, 1946
  22. Henri Monneray, La Persécution des Juifs en France et dans les autres pays de l'Ouest presentée par la France à Nuremberg, CDJC, 1947,
  23. Henri Monneray, La Persécution des Juifs dans les pays de l'Est présentée d'Nuremberg, Paris, 1949
  24. Trials of war criminals before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals under Control Council law no. 10, Nuremberg, October 1946-April, 1949. Washington, D.C. : U.S. G.P.O., 1949-1953.
  25. Law reports of trials of war criminals. London : Published for the United Nations War Crimes Commission by H.M.S.O., 1947-1949
  26. Het proces Rauter. 's-Gravenhage, M. Nijhoff, 1952.
  27. ‚Likwidacja Getta Warszawskiego’, in: Biuletyn Żydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego w Polsce, Warsaw, January-July 1951, no. 1, pp. 59-126
  28. Poliakov, Leon, Breviare de la haine. Paris, 1951
  29. Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe, 1939-1945. London, 1953
 
Clayton Moore said:
Like I'm going to believe some Spielberg type fantasy conjured up 60 years after it was supposed have taken place.
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You *are* aware, are you not, that research has continued in this area?

What, other than your desperate need that it be so, makes anything at all written up after 1595 "some Spielberg type fantasy"?

Afraid you might not like the citations to contemporary documents in "Curilla"? Because they most certainly were written prior to 1959...

Or is it the fact that you don't read German?
 
Nick Terry said:
No problem.

  1. Lubetzki, J., La condition des juifs en France sous l’occupation allemande, 1940-1945. La legislation raciale. Paris, 1945
  2. Sarrants, R. and Tager, P. (eds), Les Juifs sous l’occupation. Recueil des textes francais et allemande, 1940-1944. Paris, 1945
  3. Dokumenty obviniaiut : sbornik dokumentov o chudovishchnykh zverstvakh germanskikh vlasteĭ na vremenno zakhvachennykh imi sovetskikh territoriiakh. vyp. 2. Moskva: OGIZ, Gos. izd-vo polit. lit-ry, 1945
  4. Datner, Szymon, Walka i zagłada białostockiego ghetta. Łódź : [Centralna Żydowska-Komisja Históryczna], 1946.
  5. Szternfinkiel, Natan Eliasz.: Zagłada Żydów Sosnowca. Katowice : [Centralna Żydowska Komisja Historyczna] , 1946
  6. Kermish, Joseph.: Powstanie w Getcie Warszawskim (19.4.-16.5.1943). Łódź : [s.n.] , 1946.
  7. Borwicz, Michal et al, W trzecia rocznice zaglady ghetta w Krakowie (13.3.43-13.3.46). Krakow, 1946
  8. Dabrowski, Jan, Krakow pod rzadami wroga 1939-1945. Krakow, 1946
  9. Friedman, Philip, 1901-1960.: Zaglada Żydów lwowskich : w okresie okupacji niemieckiej.. Wyd. 2., rozsz. Munich, 1947.
  10. Moszynski R. and Policha, L., Lublin w okresie okupacji (1939-1944). Lublin, 1948
  11. Lévai, Jenö, Zsidósors Európában. Budapest: Magyar Téka, [c1948]
  12. Molho, Michael et al, In Memoriam. Hommage aux victimes juives des nazis en Grece. Vols 1-III Salonika, 1948ff
  13. Weinreich, Max, Hitler’s Professors. New York, 1946
  14. Carp, Matatias, Cartea Neagra – Suferintele Evreilor din Romania 1940-1944, 3 Vols, Bucharest, 1946-1948
  15. IMT, The Trial against the Main War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1945- 1946
  16. Nazi conspiracy and aggression / Office of United States Chief of Counsel for Prosecution of Axis Criminality. Washington : U.S. G.P.O, 1946 - 1947. 11 vols
  17. Central Commission for Investigation of German Crimes in Poland (ed.), German crimes in Poland, Warsaw 1946.
  18. Borwicz, Michał, Nella Rost and Józef Wulf (eds.), Dokumenty zbrodni i męczeństwa . Książ ki Wojewódzkiej Żydowskiej Komisij Historicznej w Krakowie No. 1. Cracow, 1945
  19. Blumental, Natan (ed), Dokumenty i materialy z csasow okupacji niemieckiej w Polsce. Tom 1: Obozy. Lodz, 1946
  20. Kermisz, Józef (ed), Dokumenty i Materiały do dziejów okupacji niemieckiej w Polce, Vol. II: "Akcje" i "Wysiedlenia", Warsaw - Lodz- Krakow 1946
  21. Eisenbach, Artur (ed), Dokumenty i materialy do dziejow okupacji niemieckiej w Polsce. Bd 3: Getto lodzkie. Warsaw, Lodz, Krakow, 1946
  22. Henri Monneray, La Persécution des Juifs en France et dans les autres pays de l'Ouest presentée par la France à Nuremberg, CDJC, 1947,
  23. Henri Monneray, La Persécution des Juifs dans les pays de l'Est présentée d'Nuremberg, Paris, 1949
  24. Trials of war criminals before the Nuernberg Military Tribunals under Control Council law no. 10, Nuremberg, October 1946-April, 1949. Washington, D.C. : U.S. G.P.O., 1949-1953.
  25. Law reports of trials of war criminals. London : Published for the United Nations War Crimes Commission by H.M.S.O., 1947-1949
  26. Het proces Rauter. 's-Gravenhage, M. Nijhoff, 1952.
  27. ‚Likwidacja Getta Warszawskiego’, in: Biuletyn Żydowskiego Instytutu Historycznego w Polsce, Warsaw, January-July 1951, no. 1, pp. 59-126
  28. Poliakov, Leon, Breviare de la haine. Paris, 1951
  29. Reitlinger, Gerald, The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe, 1939-1945. London, 1953
Click to expand...

Off topic.


Remembering that the overpowered captives had to be guarded 24/7, how many German soldiers would it take to overpower 3 million Jewish people over a 3 year period?

Did the German soldiers travel with their captives? And then do no soldiering till they captured more Jewish people?
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Clayton Moore said:
Are you ready to admit Spielberg's Academy Award winning The Last Days was a Holocaust fabrication? How do you think Spielberg should punished?
Click to expand...

What, exactly, in that film did Spielberg (or any of the cast) fabricate?

Or shall we put this down to another lame attempt on your part to avoid the evidence by telling unrelated lies?

Speaking of lies:

When did the Jews exit the trains, and what evidence do you offer in support of this physical and logistical impossibility?

Which specific "rules of social and legal fairness" did Anne Frank "throw out the window"? Korczak and his kids? Given that most of these were minors, throwing out legal rules would be a logistical and judicial impossibility.

Your lie that "even historians ... had to admit that no ... mass exterminations took place in the German camps on German soil". The existence of Sachsenhausen alone shows this to be an impossibility (except in the case of a particularly inept historian such a Faurisson).

Are we all just supposed to ignore that whole Vernichtung durch Arbeit thing just because you haven't been spoon fed a response? It's a physical and logistical impossibility that your almost complete ignorance of the actual history which you are so rabid to deny could be made up for by such spoon feeding.

How many people died at Sachsenhausen, and what rules did each of them throw out? See above re: impossibilities

Has someone spoon fed you a single lie on the THHP website? Because that's a physical and logistical impossibility given that there are none.

How do you know that "most, way above 90%, died of disease." It's a physical and logistical impossibility that you could know this for certain, since many victims were never registered and so their COD was not recorded. But even your cherised Soviet Death Books (funny how evidence from that quarter is acceptable, if it seems to help justify your hate) contradict this.

And what about (speaking of cash cows) Faurisson's lie that "Elie Wiesel ... is generally accepted as a witness to ... the legendary Nazi extermination gas chambers...." when Buna, the camp he was in, has never been said to have gas chambers? Isn't that sort of ... how did that go again? A physical and logistical impossibility?

Run, Clayton -- Run.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Are you ready to admit Spielberg's Academy Award winning The Last Days was a Holocaust fabrication? How do you think Spielberg should punished?
Click to expand...
No, because unlike you I don't hold opinions on movies I haven't seen and books I haven't read. Perhaps we could punish him anyway by compelling him to participate in this thread for a week?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Off topic.
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Well, you asked for between the war and the 1950s, yet you somehow decide the post wasn't responsive to your request. And you label books you haven't read as comic books, and you confuse scholarship with Hollywood. Another day at the office, eh.
 
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Clayton Moore said:
Off topic.
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On the contrary, the books listed answer your questions by presenting evidence on German SS and Police commands and their operations in the course of the Holocaust. In multiple countries.

Het proces Rauter. 's-Gravenhage, M. Nijhoff, 1952, for example, is the record of the trial of Hanns-Albin Rauter, the Higher SS and Police Leader in the Netherlands, one of many countries occupied by the Nazis which was affected by round-ups of Jews. Rauter controlled various German police forces and could commandeer Dutch police forces as well. He did not need to call upon Army, Luftwaffe or Navy forces to carry out the task assigned to him by Himmler to deport Jews from the Netherlands.

The standard organisational histories of the German armed forces and paramilitary police organisations are:

  1. Neufeldt, Hans-Joachim, Huck, Jürgen, Tessin, Georg, Zur Geschichte des Ordungspolizeis 1936-1945. Koblenz, 1957; updated and expanded as Tessin, George, Norbert Kannapin, and Bruen Meyer, Waffen - SS und Ordnungspolizei in Kriegensatz. Osnabrueck: Biblio Verlag, 2000
  2. Tessin, Georg, Verbände und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen-SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945. Bd 1-16. Osnabrück, 1977-1980

These make it quite clear that the Police were also used at the front. Police Battalion 310, for example, was stationed in Galicia on occupation duty in 1941, then rushed to the Leningrad front in early 1942 where it held defensive positions until August. Then Himmler ordered it to Volhynia as part of Police Regiment 15, whereupon the battalion carried out first antipartisan operations, and then carried out two massacres of large ghettos at Pinsk and Brest, killing more than 40,000 Jews. Then the Stalingrad front collapsed, and the battalion was rushed to the Don bend, where it was destroyed by Soviet forces.

The Soviets captured documents from Police Battalion 310, which were published in Dokumenty obviniaiut: sbornik dokumentov o chudovishchnykh zverstvakh germanskikh vlasteĭ na vremenno zakhvachennykh imi sovetskikh territoriiakh. vyp. 2. Moskva: OGIZ, Gos. izd-vo polit. lit-ry, 1945, and also used at Nuremberg, and have been studied by historians ever since, along with other evidence not captured by the Soviets which deal with the activities of the unit and other forces in the same region from August to November 1942, when 363,000 Jews were executed in the territories under the command of Higher SS and Police Leader, Adolf Pruetzmann.

Several other battalions took part in the executions, along with Gendarmerie, Schutzpolizei, Sicherheitspolizei and collaborator Schutzmannschaft units. Probably 10,000 men in Ukraine.

Part of the figure of 363,000 comes from the Bialystok region, which was reinforced in October 1942 by Police Regiment 2 for a temporary 'action' against the Jewish ghettos there. This regiment had previously fought against Soviet partisans in Belorussia in early 1942, one battalion had fought at the front, and all had participated in mass executions in 1941, with one battalion, Reserve Police Battalion 11, murdering 11,000 Jews in the Minsk region in October 1941 alone, attracting complaints for its brutality from Nazi civil administrators. In the autumn of 1942, Police Regiment 2 carried out a short sharp action to herd all the Jews of the Bialystok region into ghettos, where they could be guarded with far less manpower by regular police. From the ghettos, they were deported westwards to Treblinka and Auschwitz. Small detachments of Police Regiment 2 accompanied the trains westwards as guards, as was standard practice. At the end of 1942, Police Regiment 2 returned to Belorussia to continue to fight partisans, and fought several times at the front.

Further south, Reserve Police Battalion 133 was left as the sole mobile force in the Galicia region, but operated alongside 4,000 German and 4,000 Ukrainian local policemen. Battalion 133 acted as a 'fire guard' carrying out mass executions and deportations, accompanying transports to Belzec. In early 1943 it was replaced by a new police battalion from Posen/Poznan, and also sent to Belorussia to fight partisans, this time as part of Police Regiment 24. Like the units of Police Regiment 2, it was eventually swallowed up in Soviet offensives during 1944 and destroyed.

Himmler had 30 police regiments, i.e. 90 battalions, of mobile troops. He also had hundreds of thousands of German and collaborator policemen who were not organised into battalions. Policemen from Vienna accompanied deportation transports to Sobibor and Policemen from Duesseldorf accompanied deportation transports in 1941 to Riga.

This is all perfectly well known and has been since the war.
 
Before we get another silly question, there was another force established solely to guard the concentration camps, the Totenkopfverbaende, which was organised from the outbreak of war into Totenkopfsturmbanne, or battalions, formed from reservists, i.e. older age group men who were less capable of frontline service, along with an ever increasing number of wounded Waffen-SS veterans no longer fit for frontline service. There were 37,000 such men serving in the concentration camps by 1945, guarding by then, 700,000 prisoners.
 
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