Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[R.A.F.]

I am not a fool!

So you just play one on the internet?

This is becoming a annoying.

Actually, your ignorance is disgusting.

So when you will provide the evidence...

Remember when you made the "I am not a fool" claim?...well, you're doing it again.


Listen carefully now....THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU, so stop jerking us around and start providing that proof....either that or just shut up.

Who you think you are to judge if I am prepared or not to interpret myself the evidence?

How very pompous of you...guess it is difficult concealing your true self, but really...this is too much.

I made and there is not one single piece of evidence which I asked!

Try holding your breath...don't be concerned when you start turning blue...that's supposed to happen.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Listen carefully now....THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU, so stop jerking us around and start providing that proof....either that or just shut up.

The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate millions of political prisoners with gas chambers.

Therefore, being the German Third Reich the accused, the burden of proof remains on the accuser.

In the case the accuser provide dubious evidence to prove the claim,

Romanorum legis: in dubio pro reo.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Therefore, being the German Third Reich the accused, the burden of proof remains on the accuser.

That's right. Read through the IMT transcripts where the accusations are supported by evidence in a judicial hearing.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

Next step, consider that you are on a Skeptic forum in 2012, saying you are skeptical as to the IMT's findings and set out your evidence that these judicial hearings made errors. If you can't do this...go away.

It seems to me that you want us to read everything to you like a little child.

PS How's your "Internet research" going on the Rammtiger photo as evidence? Shall I show you research from the book by Field Marshal Senger und Etterlin General der Panzertruppen's book, Die deutschen Panzer 1926 - 1945.....Oh that's right....you don't read books.....and you are a holocaust denier.....who only watches videos.....

 

[beachnut]

The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate millions of political prisoners with gas chambers.

The poor NAZIs would have shot all the Jews, but that take bullets and people to shoot each person. You have no idea the logistics of lining up 6 million people and shooting them. gee whiz, have you ever been in charge of any amount of people? Imagine a plan to kill millions. You can't. Hitler did. But then he was nuts! And he failed, kind of like your denial of the Holocaust, but your failure on a peaceful scale. If you stop and think about history, your myopic view, your problem is ironic.

Therefore, being the German Third Reich the accused, the burden of proof remains on the accuser.

Nope, sorry, the NAZI nuts left so much evidence, and since you provide proof the NAZIs plotted to starve the JEWS by the thousands with less than 200 calories a day, you days as super apologizer for idiot NAZIs are over!

In the case the accuser provide dubious evidence to prove the claim,

Hitler's goal was to kill them all, he failed. You already used a source which showed NAZIs were trying to kill Jews big time, you like messed up. In a court of law, your case would be thrown out so fast, you next post would be cut short!

Romanorum legis: in dubio pro reo.

Wow. If Kingsfield read your post, he might say, "Mister SakeTongue, here is a dime (albeit dated, here borrow a cell phone). Take it, call your mother, and tell her there is serious doubt about you ever becoming a lawyer".

 

[LemmyCaution]

That's right. Read through the IMT transcripts where the accusations are supported by evidence in a judicial hearing.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

Next step, consider that you are on a Skeptic forum in 2012, saying you are skeptical as to the IMT's findings and set out your evidence that these judicial hearings made errors. If you can't do this...go away.

Even more importantly, IMHO, there is the entire weight of proper historical research since that time, which, carried out by people with varying political views, has clarified and revised earlier understandings, brought to light additional source material, and is unanimous on the question of genocide. Given this historical burden, the burden of proof lies with those who challenge the proper history. And, for starters, they need to be familiar with that history, acknowledge it, and show where they feel it is deficient or wrong. Just to get a seat at the grown-ups' table.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The original claim: German Third Reich had mass exterminate millions of political prisoners with gas chambers.

Please provide a quotation for this specific claim and show where it has been made.

 

[Maja]

SnakeTongue, in this post you said that the very idea of witness testimonies being used as evidence was laughable:

Ha, ha, ha...

"documents"

"findings" (that one is my favorite)

"witness testimonies"

Now that's conclusive evidence!

But soon after that you showed great faith in the testimony of one particular witness:

There is a testimony of a Jew which visited the concentration camps soon after the end of the second world war and did not spot one single homicidal gas chamber...

Why is that particular testimony of a Jew who visited the camps after the war believable, and all the testimonies of the Jews and Nazis who were in the camps during the war and saw the gas chambers unbelievable?

 

[OCaptain]

Evidence which precisely demonstrate how the gas chambers were operated, from begin to end:

1. Who worked with the gas chambers? There are testimonies?

2. How was the process of selection of the victims? There are documents indicating the method?

3. Which company was required to construct the gas chambers? There are commercial contracts left?

4. How the operator were instruct to safely use the gas chambers? Which documents show the safety precautions adopted?

5. Which scientists and engineers were consulted to develop the gas chamber? There is sketches of a German gas chamber?

And here you are moving the goalpost again! There is no evidence that you will accept. At least be honest about that, why not?

 

[OCaptain]

That is coming to an impossible point.

No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence produced by the Germans which prove the existence of a mass extermination plan. No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence about the supposed homicidal gas chambers.

All what I have is insistence to read books after books, essays after essays... That means, to read the interpretation of other people rather than interpret the evidence myself.

Beside the insults, the mockery, the fallacies, the misinterpretations...

I had the feeling that I am being suggest to accept fiction as fact, as religious leaders demand from its followers.

The whole scene is confusing...

There is a testimony of a Jew which visited the concentration camps soon after the end of the second world war and did not spot one single homicidal gas chamber...

...and there is thousand of documents producing speculations after speculation over a fictional event without the support of forensic evidence.

What should I trust?

Should I trust that the Germans deliberative exterminated millions of people in death camps, ghettos, gas vans, without to resort to any bureaucratic method? That millions were exterminated, but all the Germans officers involved kept most of the information in their memory?

How could a organized community kill millions at different places, at different times, at different situations, at different weathers, without leave one single piece of paper confirming the deaths.

The bottom line is the allegation of a plan to "squeeze" all valuable items from the Jews. That sound so ridiculous for anyone which have been learning from military strategy. This allegation contradict the current situation of the German economy in the last years of the war.

What diamonds, gold, textile, shoes, etc., would do if there was no food to buy due the blockades? If there was enemies with heavy weapons approaching from west and east? If there was a massive bombarding of German cities, factories, farmlands?

Perhaps the Germans developed a secret technique to transform the supposed Jewish goods in rifles K-98, grenades M24, machine guns MG 42, guns PAK43, shells HVAP?

Perhaps the Germans developed a secret chemistry formula to transmute the supposed Jewish goods in potatoes, cabbage, apples?

Perhaps the Germans developed a secret engine fed by the supposed Jewish goods?

Oh... I know. I am all wrong. The Germans survived with the human fat produced from the cremated bodies. There was Jew soap, Jew butter, Jew jam and Jew oil, all free and in great quantity due the millions killed daily in the gas chambers...

And now the truth comes out...

 

[BaaBaa]

Surprise!

 

[LemmyCaution]

SnakeTongue, in this post you said that the very idea of witness testimonies being used as evidence was laughable:

But soon after that you showed great faith in the testimony of one particular witness:
Why is that particular testimony of a Jew who visited the camps after the war believable, and all the testimonies of the Jews and Nazis who were in the camps during the war and saw the gas chambers unbelievable?

He gets to choose what evidence, including witnesses, he likes, based on whether or not it supports his preconceived notions, a priori conclusions, and biases. Judging from his behavior already in this discussion, he also gets to be selective about facts and play fast and loose with the truth. It's the real beauty of denial - not having to be tethered to this annoying thing called reality.

 

[Multivac]

And I see it took you barely a day to go from "I'm just looking for evidence and documents about the gas chambers" and "Himmler? Who's that? He gave a speech, you say? Was it in English?" to "Revisionists are being attacked and insulted because they dare to question the nonexistent evidence for the Holy Truth of the Holocaust!" and linking to Faurisson's blog.

Unfortunately this seems to be the standard technique for deniers, although it's a bit novel to ask who Himmler is and whether or not his speech was in English.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Unfortunately this seems to be the standard technique for deniers, although it's a bit novel to ask who Himmler is and whether or not his speech was in English.

Not to mention alleging that the genocide was really the murder of millions of "political prisoners."

OTOH human soap, show me a video, moving goalposts, and ghetto denial are all standard fare.

 

[000063]

...Uh huh. And what documents and forensic data did you "verify", and how exactly didyou manage to "verify" them?...

You have being polite and providing good resources to me verify.

Now you are doing as the others, assumptions.

Do not discredit yourself.

Assumptions, you say?

 

[fourtoe]

In the 70s the master stroke was administered by Hollywood moguls when the 6 Million Dollar Man forever etched the 6 million number into the psyche of every TV watcher on the planet.

Brilliant.

I'm new to this HoaxoCau$t CT, but I find the claim that there's no forensic evidence bizarre...aren't there still gas chambers with residues of the gas that they used to kill people still evident?

 

[SnakeTongue]

Here.

Since you provided an extensive list of documents, all from the same source, I will produce short analysis for each one. In the analysis I will consider the review presented with the documents as part of the evidence. Therefore I will address not only the document, but as well the allegation of a mass extermination plan executed by the Third Reich.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Analysis of the Presented Evidence

Introduction

Evidence

A scanned document presented in the review "...special vans...or other remedies...” in The Holocaust History internet page. [1]

Claim

The internet page reviewer uses the document to prove that vehicles equipped with a gas chamber were part of a supposed mass extermination plan performed by the Germans during the Second World War. To support the claim, the reviewer argues that steel bottles containing carbon monoxide were employed to poison people locked inside the vehicle gas chamber. [2]

Source

The document is a copy of the original document provided by the Bundesarchiv Koblenz [3] archive.

Language

German is the only applied language in the document. The document reviewer uses a translation made by Gord McFee exclusively for The Holocaust History internet page. [4]

Format

Letter produced by a mechanical typing machine with presence of handwriting notes and signatures. [5]

Samples

1.


2.


3.


Examination

1. Sending office code in the top right corner is not complete (sample 1).

2. Letter serial number in the top right corner is identified with handwriting (sample 1).

3. Date typed in the top left corner is not completely specified (sample 1).

4. Wrong translation of the word “Sonderwager” presented in the Gord McFee translation (sample 2) [6]

5. Wrong translation of the word “Hilfsmitteln” presented in the Gord McFee translation (sample 3) [7]

6. The paragraph starting with “2)” was inserted after the original letter was finished (sample 3):

a. Slight rotation of the paragraph line when compared with the previous part of the letter.

b. The paragraph is overwriting the original abbreviation "I.A." used in the end of the letter. [8]

7. Officer “Pradel” rank is wrongly identified as “Major” (sample 3). [9]

Interpretation

In view of the examination 1, 2, 3 and 7, the letter cannot be considered as legitimate proof of identification. Lack of the necessary information which serves exclusively to identify the letter characteristics is fundamental to cross the relevant information with other evidences. Therefore the letter cannot prove the involvement of the officers “Rauf” and “Pradel” with the alleged claim.

The examination 4 and 5 shows an attempt to force the reader to follow a pre-defined logic when evaluating the review. The reviewer carefully selected the two word title from the misinterpreted words: "...special vans...or other remedies...”

From the examination 6a, 6b and 7, is possible to conclude that the paragraph starting with “2)” was deliberately inserted to link the name “Prade” with the presumed sender “Raulf”.

The letter translation does not support the reviewer claim, except by the citation of “steel bottles with carbon monoxide”, whose purpose is not clearly defined by the letter context.

Conclusion

The analysed document is forged and was misinterpreted from a biased translation to prove the claim.

Notes:
[1] March 26, 1942: "Special Vans...or Other Remedies". http://holocaust-history.org/
[2] Letter from Rauff to the Criminal Technical Institute, stating that "special vans" are needed at the Mauthausen concentration camp. Until they arrive, bottled poison gas must be used.
[3] http://www.bundesarchiv.de
[4] The translation above is by Holocaust History Project volunteer Gord McFee. http://holocaust-history.org/19420326-rauff-sonderwagen/
[5] http://holocaust-history.org/19420326-rauff-sonderwagen/p1.jpg
[6] Google Translate: aids, tools, auxiliaries, auxiliary, assistant. http://translate.google.com/#de|en|Hilfsmitteln
[7] Google Translate: special or specific + car, wagons, trolley, cart. http://translate.google.com/#de|en|Sonderwagen
[8] IA - im Auftrag, "i.A." http://www.chemie.fu-berlin.de/cgi-bin/acronym?i.a.
[9] II. D 3 a Kraftfahrwesen der Sipo (SS-Hauptsturmführer und Hauptmann der Schutzpolizei Friedrich Pradel) http://www.drittesreich.wz.cz/organizace/ss/deleni_ss/allgemeine_ss/rsha/rsha.html

 

[SnakeTongue]

That's right. Read through the IMT transcripts where the accusations are supported by evidence in a judicial hearing.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/imt.asp

The manuscripts of the International Military Tribunal are vast...

Could you point out where in the countless manuscripts I could find a legitimated document with Adolf Hitler signature ordering the execution of a mass extermination plan against the Jews?

 

[SnakeTongue]

The poor NAZIs would have shot all the Jews, but that take bullets and people to shoot each person. You have no idea the logistics of lining up 6 million people and shooting them. gee whiz, have you ever been in charge of any amount of people? Imagine a plan to kill millions. You can't. Hitler did. But then he was nuts! And he failed, kind of like your denial of the Holocaust, but your failure on a peaceful scale. If you stop and think about history, your myopic view, your problem is ironic.

Nope, sorry, the NAZI nuts left so much evidence, and since you provide proof the NAZIs plotted to starve the JEWS by the thousands with less than 200 calories a day, you days as super apologizer for idiot NAZIs are over!

Hitler's goal was to kill them all, he failed. You already used a source which showed NAZIs were trying to kill Jews big time, you like messed up. In a court of law, your case would be thrown out so fast, you next post would be cut short!

Wow. If Kingsfield read your post, he might say, "Mister SakeTongue, here is a dime (albeit dated, here borrow a cell phone). Take it, call your mother, and tell her there is serious doubt about you ever becoming a lawyer".

You type so much and do not provide one single piece of evidence for your claims.

A photograph showing a group of prisoners of Stutthof concentration camp


http://www.poland.pl/f/img/dokumenty/oboz.jpg

You see? I just hope that all well groomed and healthy men had a brothel in the camp, like in Auschwitz:

Auschwitz, Inside the Nazi State

The brothel was in operation until January 1945, and though little is known about the women forced to work here, it is believed they were chosen from non-Jewish inmates. The whole subject is one that most prefer not to talk about, but the suffering endured by these women is perhaps one of the least acknowledged aspects of the history of Auschwitz.

http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/corruption/1943b.html

All part of a "Nazi Ultra Secret Master Pimp Plan"!

Edited by Locknar: 

Edited, hotlink removed, breach of rule 5.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Please provide a quotation for this specific claim and show where it has been made.

THE HOLY BOOK CALLED HOLOCAUST ENCYCLOPEDIA!

GASSING OPERATIONS

(...)

The Nazis constantly searched for more efficient means of extermination. At the Auschwitz camp in Poland, they conducted experiments with Zyklon B (previously used for fumigation) by gassing some 600 Soviet prisoners of war and 250 ill prisoners in September 1941. Zyklon B pellets, converted to lethal gas when exposed to air. They proved the quickest gassing method and were chosen as the means of mass murder at Auschwitz. At the height of the deportations, up to 6,000 Jews were gassed each day at Auschwitz.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005220

AMEN.

 

[beachnut]

You type so much and do not provide one single piece of evidence for your claims.

A photograph showing a group of prisoners of Stutthof concentration camp


http://www.poland.pl/f/img/dokumenty/oboz.jpg

You see? I just hope that all well groomed and healthy men had a brothel in the camp, like in Auschwitz:



http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/40-45/corruption/1943b.html

All part of a "Nazi Ultra Secret Master Pimp Plan"!

You avoided addressing your failures and posted more tripe, and the sources debunk your failed Holocaust denial. You don't understand logistics and scale. When you become a supervisor, you might gain some insight into a complex system, or not. Where do you get all your knowledge on the Holocaust? Oh, google. Never mind.

You don't know much about the Holocaust. Go ahead, be the big person and make fun of people killed. You are doing a great job. To notch.

Just like a Holocaust denier to provide proof against their idiotic failed delusions. Did you read your sources? Are you trying to debunk yourself?
You posted evidence against your claims!? What is up? Are you making a joke of Holocaust deniers? Is this a parody?

Here is that dime...