Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

[SnakeTongue]

No it doesn't, actually. Did you read the part in both of the links where it talks about how Jewish ghetto residents were forced to trade their remaining valuables for enough food to survive? Well, guess what else Freidrich Uebelhoer's memo said?

"The Nutrition Department of the city of Lodz will deliver the required foodstuffs and fuel at locations in the ghetto still to be decided, and hand these over to the representative of the Jewish administration for distribution. The principle must be that foodstuffs and fuel can be paid for only by means of an exchange of materials, such as textiles, etc. In this way we should succeed in getting from the Jews all their hoarded and hidden items of value."

Where I find the document with the above quote?

The Jews were to have as much as possible squeezed out of them in terms of extracted valuables and labor. Starvation rations was part of the squeezing process. The Nazis didn't care that their policy resulted in mass starvation among the ghetto population, just that it didn't kill all the Jews all at once...at least, not until every last drop had been wrung from them, and they could then be deported to the death camps.

Which magic the Germans used to force people which cannot stand on its feet to perform heavy work on factories?

If one accept the premise which claim the ghettos were used to restrict and let the people starve to death, the one cannot support the premise which claim the ghettos were used to obtain forced labour from the people.

Sick people cannot work properly, even if forced.

That is blatantly obvious.

Now, the "squeeze" idea is ridiculous. The Germans had the power to force anyone to handle to them whatever they wished. They could easy gather a brigade of soldiers to steal the valuable items from the people of the ghettos.

However, that was not the Germans intention, as Himmler, in his speech, indicate that theft were not tolerated, even among the officers:

Speech of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler at Posen 4 October 1943

(...)

5) Honesty

I now come to a fifth point: sanctity of property, honesty, sincerity. I must say that these things have gotten very murky in Germany; we have become -- if I say this now in a closed room, it's because it's only intended for this small group of people -- a very corrupt people. We should not, and need not, however -- I want to mention this -- take it so tragically, so pessimistically. Many people say, "Oh, the Finns are an honest people". Yes sir. Do you know why they're so honest? Not because they've got simply fantastic moral inclinations, but because they had laws for 300 years, that anybody who stole one Finnish mark should have his hand hacked off. And that was so painful and so distressing that the whole people, as a result of such measures and such education, gradually became honest. We're not going to start doing that here, but, gentlemen, we must always take care to begin with ourselves. We will never succeed in bringing the pestilence called corruption under control, not even within our own ranks -- it's not so bad yet -- unless we persecute all signs of incipient corruption in our ranks without exception and without restriction, without asking "Who is it?", and without saying "But... but...". We must persecute them with barbarous severity, demoting all corrupt men, depriving them of office and decorations, and exposing them before their subordinates.

http://www.cwporter.com/posen.htm

 

[LemmyCaution]

You don't understand logistics? Did you know Hitler's goal was to exterminate all the Jews? Did you read his book? You realize this policy of eliminating Jews took time? Time?

I have never understood why deniers are so proud of their "discovery" that it took time to murder 5+ million Jews living in communities all across Europe, under differing jurisdictions, and that before they finished destroying Europe's Jews, the war ended, with some Jews still alive. It takes a four year old's experience in the world to understand that big things don't happen all at once and yet our deniers lack the understanding of four year old. Millions of Jews weren't murdered, they say, because they didn't all die at once, some were exploited before being killed, and some survived before the Nazis finished them off.

 

[SnakeTongue]

Sure you did. You re blatantly lying. Go back and look at your post.

The burden of proof is on you.

I care less.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Where I find the document with the above.

Are you just trying to be funny? You demand links - then ignore them. The quoted paragraph is in the same document which ANTPogo linked to before. Sheesh.

 

[A'isha]

Where I find the document with the above quote?

I gave you a link right in the post you replied to.

Which magic the Germans used to force people which cannot stand on its feet to perform heavy work on factories?

If one accept the premise which claim the ghettos were used to restrict and let the people starve to death, the one cannot support the premise which claim the ghettos were used to obtain forced labour from the people.

Sick people cannot work properly, even if forced.

That is blatantly obvious.

The Germans didn't care about working them properly. They cared mostly about working them enough, and then discarded them when they couldn't extract any more.

You don't even know what the forced labor program entailed. Fortunately, actual historians have done all the work for you, so you can remedy your ignorance.

Not that you will.

Now, the "squeeze" idea is ridiculous. The Germans had the power to force anyone to handle to them whatever they wished. They could easy gather a brigade of soldiers to steal the valuable items from the people of the ghettos.

No, they didn't have the manpower to find every single hidden cache and horde, nor to interrogate every Jew to make sure that he or she had turned over everything and spilled the beans on all their hidden stashes.

So they came up with a plan to get the Jews to turn over all their valuables, no matter how well hidden, voluntarily.

However, that was not the Germans intention, as Himmler, in his speech, indicate that theft were not tolerated, even among the officers:

http://www.cwporter.com/posen.htm

I find it truly remarkable that all your investigoogling can't seem to find the actual evidence you're asking for, but somehow invariably manages to find something posted on a denier website.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The burden of proof is on you.

I care less.

Of course you don't care, you are the one who falsified what I wrote.

It is clear that in this post http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8120183&postcount=10068 you put together what I wrote with what Matthew Ellard wrote, as shown in the links posted here http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8120386&postcount=10080

Unlike you, I value honesty and accuracy.

 

[R.A.F.]

The burden of proof is on you.

The holocaust happened..those who disagree HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROVING IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

Your post only demonstrates your ignorance regarding this simple FACT.

 

[tsig]

Evidence which precisely demonstrate how the gas chambers were operated, from begin to end:

1. Who worked with the gas chambers? There are testimonies?

2. How was the process of selection of the victims? There are documents indicating the method?

3. Which company was required to construct the gas chambers? There are commercial contracts left?

4. How the operator were instruct to safely use the gas chambers? Which documents show the safety precautions adopted?

5. Which scientists and engineers were consulted to develop the gas chamber? There is sketches of a German gas chamber?

Hey, who moved the goalposts?

 

[LemmyCaution]

I find it truly remarkable that all your investigoogling can't seem to find the actual evidence you're asking for, but somehow invariably manages to find something posted on a denier website.

I don't. I expect this from him at this point.

But the way, thanks for saving me the effort of having to type yet another time the basic contours of what Jewish forced labor was about. Ditto the question of how best to locate and gain possession of valuables.

 

[tsig]

Evidence which precisely demonstrate how the gas chambers were operated, from begin to end:

1. Who worked with the gas chambers? There are testimonies?

2. How was the process of selection of the victims? There are documents indicating the method?

3. Which company was required to construct the gas chambers? There are commercial contracts left?

4. How the operator were instruct to safely use the gas chambers? Which documents show the safety precautions adopted?

5. Which scientists and engineers were consulted to develop the gas chamber? There is sketches of a German gas chamber?

If there was a Holocaust computer virus its signature would be lying.

Holocaustics check every door/avenue to see what they can get away with lying about. To them silence, no response, is golden.

They conjured up the 6 MILLION number over a CENTURY ago. Then relaunched it in WWI. Again early in WW2 and at the end of WW2.

In the 70s the master stroke was administered by Hollywood moguls when the 6 Million Dollar Man forever etched the 6 million number into the psyche of every TV watcher on the planet.

 

[A'isha]

I don't. I expect this from him at this point.

Yeah, I was just being sarcastic. It's pretty clear that he was an avid reader of denier websites long before he ever posted in this thread.

But the way, thanks for saving me the effort of having to type yet another time the basic contours of what Jewish forced labor was about. Ditto the question of how best to locate and gain possession of valuables.

No problem!

 

[SnakeTongue]

I thought you said you read Pressac.

What have the extensive description of CREMATORIUMS of Jean-Claude Pressac anything to do with HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBERS?

Could you provide any evidence from the own Germans which answer my questions regard to the HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBERS?

The existence of crematoriums do not prove the existence of gas chambers.

 

[A'isha]

What have the extensive description of CREMATORIUMS of Jean-Claude Pressac anything to do with HOMICIDAL GAS CHAMBERS?

Well, for one thing, that's where the Nazis burned all the bodies of the victims murdered in the gas chambers.

Gas chambers which Pressac also describes (his book is titled "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers", you know).

Did you not read that part?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Yeah, I was just being sarcastic. It's pretty clear that he was an avid reader of denier websites long before he ever posted in this thread.



No problem!

From his very first trolling comment . . . the pretend-to-be-innocent routine so familiar to us all . . . LOL

 

[LemmyCaution]

Well, for one thing, that's where the Nazis burned all the bodies of the victims murdered in the gas chambers.

Gas chambers which Pressac also describes (his book is titled "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers", you know).

Did you not read that part?

Reading the word thingies in the linkies we give him doesn't seem to be his strong suit . . .

 

[Mudcat]

You really think that someone who completely dismissed the footage provided by Kevin Silbstedt of human beings actually being killed by the Nazis in a gas chamber (taken by the Nazis themselves) will be convinced by a non-lethal reconstruction?

It'd be one thing (albeit still a stupid thing) if he simply doubted that the gas chambers would work as the blueprints show they were constructed. But he doesn't deny that, he denies the existence of the entire intentional genocide plan, right down to the ghettos.

Ah, verry valid points.

 

[SnakeTongue]

That is coming to an impossible point.

No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence produced by the Germans which prove the existence of a mass extermination plan. No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence about the supposed homicidal gas chambers.

All what I have is insistence to read books after books, essays after essays... That means, to read the interpretation of other people rather than interpret the evidence myself.

Beside the insults, the mockery, the fallacies, the misinterpretations...

I had the feeling that I am being suggest to accept fiction as fact, as religious leaders demand from its followers.

The whole scene is confusing...

There is a testimony of a Jew which visited the concentration camps soon after the end of the second world war and did not spot one single homicidal gas chamber...

...and there is thousand of documents producing speculations after speculation over a fictional event without the support of forensic evidence.

What should I trust?

Should I trust that the Germans deliberative exterminated millions of people in death camps, ghettos, gas vans, without to resort to any bureaucratic method? That millions were exterminated, but all the Germans officers involved kept most of the information in their memory?

How could a organized community kill millions at different places, at different times, at different situations, at different weathers, without leave one single piece of paper confirming the deaths.

The bottom line is the allegation of a plan to "squeeze" all valuable items from the Jews. That sound so ridiculous for anyone which have been learning from military strategy. This allegation contradict the current situation of the German economy in the last years of the war.

What diamonds, gold, textile, shoes, etc., would do if there was no food to buy due the blockades? If there was enemies with heavy weapons approaching from west and east? If there was a massive bombarding of German cities, factories, farmlands?

Perhaps the Germans developed a secret technique to transform the supposed Jewish goods in rifles K-98, grenades M24, machine guns MG 42, guns PAK43, shells HVAP?

Perhaps the Germans developed a secret chemistry formula to transmute the supposed Jewish goods in potatoes, cabbage, apples?

Perhaps the Germans developed a secret engine fed by the supposed Jewish goods?

Oh... I know. I am all wrong. The Germans survived with the human fat produced from the cremated bodies. There was Jew soap, Jew butter, Jew jam and Jew oil, all free and in great quantity due the millions killed daily in the gas chambers...

 

[SpringHallConvert]

That is coming to an impossible point.

No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence produced by the Germans which prove the existence of a mass extermination plan. No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence about the supposed homicidal gas chambers.

All what I have is insistence to read books after books, essays after essays... That means, to read the interpretation of other people rather than interpret the evidence myself.

Beside the insults, the mockery, the fallacies, the misinterpretations...

I had the feeling that I am being suggest to accept fiction as fact, as religious leaders demand from its followers.

The whole scene is confusing...

That's the whole idea. That's how propaganda works. You are to be hammered, through incessant repetition, an idea that you must come to accept as true, no matter how big of a lie it is. About 9 out of 10 succumb to this repetition without asking questions. You are the exception who won't "go along to get along". That's why they attack you.

 

[A'isha]

No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence produced by the Germans which prove the existence of a mass extermination plan. No one here was able to provide one single piece of evidence about the supposed homicidal gas chambers.

Actually, we've provided you lots of pieces of evidence. You simply refuse to look at them:

All what I have is insistence to read books after books, essays after essays...

See?

That means, to read the interpretation of other people rather than interpret the evidence myself.

Something you're entirely unequipped to do, even if you were prepared to examine the originals yourself. But all of the works we've given you cite their sources, and you're more than welcome to go to the archives yourself, if the reproduction and interpretation of these documents (such as in Pressac's book) by a thousands of historians across decades of time isn't good enough for you.

I can't help but note that despite your disgruntlement at being given "essays" to read and not the actual "evidence" when you ask here, you're apparently perfectly happy with the denier "essays" you've quoted, without a single piece of actual evidence provided or referenced by them.

There is a testimony of a Jew which visited the concentration camps soon after the end of the second world war and did not spot one single homicidal gas chamber...

No, there isn't. There's the report of a longtime denier for use at the trial of another denier, which is trivially proven wrong simply by reading the links I myself have given you.

Which is no doubt why you haven't read them.

...and there is thousand of documents producing speculations after speculation over a fictional event without the support of forensic evidence.

What should I trust?

Ooops...by saying "speculation over a fictional event", you're really giving yourself away here.

Should I trust that the Germans deliberative exterminated millions of people in death camps, ghettos, gas vans, without to resort to any bureaucratic method? That millions were exterminated, but all the Germans officers involved kept most of the information in their memory?

How could a organized community kill millions at different places, at different times, at different situations, at different weathers, without leave one single piece of paper confirming the deaths.

There are lots of documents about that, many of which were cited and quoted in the links I and LemmyCaution gave you.

The bottom line is the allegation of a plan to "squeeze" all valuable items from the Jews. That sound so ridiculous for anyone which have been learning from military strategy. This allegation contradict the current situation of the German economy in the last years of the war.

If you think 1939 was in "the last years of the war", you probably should stop pretending to study military history and start studying some remedial history.

Oh... I know. I am all wrong.

Yes. Yes you are.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Oh... I know. I am all wrong. The Germans survived with the human fat produced from the cremated bodies. There was Jew soap, Jew butter, Jew jam and Jew oil, all free and in great quantity due the millions killed daily in the gas chambers...

In addition to ANTPogo's apt comments, I will just add that you won't find anyone on this board, or any historians of any reputation or ability, making such claims. Why do you imply that when people say you're wrong, they mean things which they have never written or claimed? This is a dishonest approach to discussion.