Who's who in the 911-truth movement?

[Panoply_Prefect]

Paul Thompson, author of "The Terror Timeline"?

He probably deserves a mention. Of all the 9/11 Truthers (yes, I think he's a 9/11 Truther) he has been most recognised... for example he was asked to speak at a congressional briefing on the 9/11 Commission Report in 2005.

Ugh... apparently he lives in New Zealand now.

-Gumboot

Havent heard about him before. Whats his story?

/S

 

[ref]

Havent heard about him before. Whats his story?

/S

The co-operative research 9/11 timeline is his project.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Thompson, who is in his mid-30's, studied psychology and political science at Stanford, and was working as an environmentalist in Berkeley, California, specializing in saving South-East Asian rain forests, when the September 11, 2001, attack occurred. Like most “reasonably informed” people, he says, he began to read extensively about the event.

Then, in May 2002, it came out that President Bush had been warned about an imminent act of terrorism, specifically in an August 2001 briefing titled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in US.” The news galvanized Thompson.

“I went online and found obscure stories from reputable sources that were really astounding,” he says.

“The government seemed to be covering up embarrassing information. I started making the timeline as a way for myself to understand.”

“Then after a while it snowballed, got bigger and bigger. That interest eventually took over.”

By early last year, Thompson was completely preoccupied with his research. He quit his job to work on it, and resolved to move to New Zealand. He had been here on holiday and liked it, and his work now required only a computer and an internet connection, so he moved to Nelson.

“I'm very impressed with New Zealand,” he says. “It is going in a great direction and I don't think the US is. I would rather be a part of what's happening here.”

Thompson has compiled a hoard of dates, facts, and figures from more than 5,000 news articles. People email him information they have found online, and he has help from the Center for Cooperative Research in California, which has published the timeline on its website. More recently it has come out in book form, from Harper Collins.

The Sunday Star Times, New Zealand, March 13, 2005

 

[ref]

Another, more recent article about Paul Thompson.

http://www.readbuzz.com/home/index....story_id=1e6fedc5-0acf-42f8-aa32-e554a04e65b8

 

[gumboot]

Havent heard about him before. Whats his story?

/S

Apparantly Paul Thompson isn't his real name...

Here's Wikipedia's angle:

Paul Thompson is the author of "The Terror Timeline: Year by Year, Day by Day, Minute by Minute: A Comprehensive Chronicle of the Road to 9/11 — and America's Response", a compilation of over 5,000 reports and articles concerning the September 11, 2001 attacks. The book was based on research conducted by himself and The Center for Cooperative Research through the website titled "The Complete 9/11 Timeline". Thompson's research in the field has garnered over 100 radio interviews, along with TV interviews on Fox News and Air America and interviews in print, such as for Buzz Magazine. Articles about himself, his research and it's reception by the 9/11 Truth Movement have appeared in The Village Voice and Esquire Magazine's "Genius Issue" and recognition as "an authority on terrorism", even though, "He never studied, trained", as noted by Esquire. In 2005, Thompson was asked to speak at a congressional briefing on the 9/11 Commission’s final report, he addressed what he defined as failures by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD).

Paul Thompson was born in Pacific Beach, California and currently holds a psychology degree from Stanford University obtained in 1990. He now spends time there and in New Zealand. He is a freelance researcher and has worked in the past as an environmental activist, at an environmental-protection firm.

The website can be found here.

Paul Thompson, I think, has received so much attention because the CTer nature of his research doesn't come through unless you actually read the individual entries in his timeline. Journalists don't do that, obviously, and so see it as a piece of thorough research.

Having actually read every single entry myself, it's not so much a thorough piece of research as a regurgitation of every single erroneous or questionable media report regarding anything remotely relating to 9/11, totally ignoring surrounding context, retractions, or later follow ups of said reports, and sprinkled throughout with totally baseless and unsupported speculation.

It's people like Paul Thompson that pose a genuine threat to the truth of what happened on 9/11. No sane person takes no-plane or "evil smoke" claims seriously. But on the surface the Terror Timeline looks credible, thorough, objective, and accurate.

In reality it's none of those things.

As to what specific CTs his timeline implicates?

Try some of these entries:

(6:45 a.m.): Israeli Company Given Two Hours’ Notice of Attack

“Approximately two hours prior to the first attack,” at least two workers at Odigo, an Israeli-owned instant messaging company, receive messages warning of the attack. Odigo’s US headquarters are located two blocks from the WTC. The source of the warning is unknown. [Ha'aretz, 9/26/2001; Washington Post, 9/28/2001]

(9:50 a.m.): Molten Metal Pours from South Tower

Video footage later reveals that in the minutes immediately before the collapse of the WTC’s south tower, a stream of molten metal starts pouring out of a window opening around the northeast corner of its 80th floor.

9:52 a.m.: Firefighters Reach 78th Floor of South Tower; Find Two Isolated Fires

Two firefighters climbing up the south tower, Orio Palmer and Ronald Bucca, have reached its 78th floor, the lower end of the impact zone where Flight 175 hit. [New York Times, 8/4/2002] They are just two floors below the level where, minutes later, its collapse initiates. [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002, pp. 2-34] Over radio, Palmer tells firefighter Joseph Leavey, “We’ve got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines.” [Dwyer and Flynn, 2005, pp. 206] The fact that they reached so high up the tower only comes to light almost a year later, when a tape of radio communications from 9/11 is made public (see August 4, 2002). The New York Times will report “[N]owhere on the tape is there any indication that firefighters had the slightest indication that the tower had become unstable or that it could fall.” [New York Times, 11/9/2002] Palmer’s communication appears to contradict claims that “extreme fires” contributed to the tower’s collapse.

Shortly Before 9:59 a.m.: Ground Shakes Prior to South Tower Collapse

Some witnesses near the World Trade Center feel the ground shaking just before the south tower starts to collapse:
bullet EMT Joseph Fortis is heading across West Street, when, he says, “the ground started shaking like a train was coming.” He then looks up and sees the south tower starting to collapse. [City of New York, 11/9/2001]
bullet Lonnie Penn, another EMT, is outside the Marriott Hotel, which is adjacent to the north tower. He and his partner “felt the ground shake. You could see the towers sway and then it just came down.” [City of New York, 11/9/2001]
bullet Bradley Mann is at the EMS staging area on Vesey Street. He says, “Shortly before the first tower came down I remember feeling the ground shaking. I heard a terrible noise, and then debris just started flying everywhere.” [City of New York, 11/7/2001]
bullet Battalion Chief Brian O’Flaherty is walking into the lobby of the Marriott Hotel. He says, “I hear a noise. Right after that noise, you could feel the building start to shudder, tremble, under your feet.” He then hears the “terrible noise” of the south tower collapsing. [City of New York, 1/9/2002] Witnesses will also notice the ground shaking before the north tower collapses (see Shortly Before 10:28 a.m. September 11, 2001).

(Before 9:59 a.m.): Gold Transported Through WTC Basement

Large amounts of gold are stored in vaults in the massive basement below the WTC, and some of this is being transported through the basement this morning. Several weeks later, recovery workers will discover hundreds of ingots in a service tunnel below WTC 5, along with a ten-wheel lorry and some cars (which were, presumably, transporting the gold) (see (Mid-October-mid November 2001)). The lorry and cars had been crushed by falling steel, but no bodies will be reported found with them, so presumably they were abandoned before the first WTC collapse, at 9:59 a.m. [New York Daily News, 10/31/2001; London Times, 11/1/2001]

9:59 a.m.: Some Witnesses Hear Explosions as South Tower Collapses

Numerous witnesses, including firefighters and other rescue workers, hear explosions at the start of, and during, the collapse of the south WTC tower. Some of them report hearing a single explosion:

[Followed by 14 eyewitness accounts, all of which describe the collapse itself as "like an explosion"]

(Before 10:06 a.m.): Flight 93 Breaks Up Prior to Crash?

Flight 93 apparently starts to break up before it crashes, because debris is found very far away from the crash site. [Philadelphia Daily News, 11/15/2001] The plane is generally obliterated upon landing, except for one half-ton piece of engine found some distance away. Some reports indicate that the engine piece was found over a mile away. [Independent, 8/13/2002] The FBI reportedly acknowledges that this piece was found “a considerable distance” from the crash site. [Philadelphia Daily News, 11/15/2001] Later, the FBI will cordon off a three-mile wide area around the crash, as well as another area six to eight miles from the initial crash site. [CNN, 9/13/2001] One story calls what happened to this engine “intriguing, because the heat-seeking, air-to-air Sidewinder missiles aboard an F-16 would likely target one of the Boeing 757’s two large engines.” [Philadelphia Daily News, 11/15/2001] Smaller debris fields are also found two, three, and eight miles away from the main crash site. [Independent, 8/13/2002; Mirror, 9/12/2002] Eight miles away, local media quote residents speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky. [Reuters, 9/13/2001] Residents outside Shanksville reported “discovering clothing, books, papers, and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene. Workers at Indian Lake Marina said that they saw a cloud of confetti-like debris descend on the lake and nearby farms minutes after hearing the explosion…” [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 9/13/2001] Moments after the crash, Carol Delasko initially thinks someone had blown up a boat on Indian Lake: “It just looked like confetti raining down all over the air above the lake.” [Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, 9/14/2001] Investigators say that far-off wreckage “probably was spread by the cloud created when the plane crashed and dispersed by a ten mph southeasterly wind.” [News Journal (Wilmington, DE), 9/16/2001] However, much of the wreckage is found sooner than that wind could have carried it, and not always southeast.

And so forth...

Thompson seems to be courting virtually every single "mainstream" CT about 9/11, without solidly committing to any.

-Gumboot

 

[ref]

Thompson seems to be courting virtually every single "mainstream" CT about 9/11, without solidly committing to any.

-Gumboot

Here is his own take on that..

Is the 9/11 Timeline a conspiracy theory Web site?

We're not a conspiracy theory Web site because we try not to have any theory. We don't have any over-arching philosophy or anything like that. Most people get excited about putting up a Web site because they have a really strong opinion and theory and they want to convince other people of that. I've strived to present the facts. There's so much misunderstanding. There's an incredible number of facts in danger of being lost. I'm trying to sort of be a librarian for the whole movement.

Do you believe that the government knew that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen and choose to let them happen?

Well, like I said, we strive to remain neutral. I don't have an opinion on that but I would say that I've looked at this so long and in such great depth that to me there's no way the official story could hold true - all these things they say ... like we could have never imagined "planes being used as weapons" or "we could have never stopped the attacks" or "we never had any warnings," all these pronouncements are just blatantly untrue. Anyone who starts to read the timeline will realize that.

http://www.readbuzz.com/home/index....story_id=1e6fedc5-0acf-42f8-aa32-e554a04e65b8

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

Here is his own take on that..

Do you believe that the government knew that the 9/11 attacks were going to happen and choose to let them happen?

Well, like I said, we strive to remain neutral. I don't have an opinion on that but I would say that I've looked at this so long and in such great depth that to me there's no way the official story could hold true - all these things they say ... like we could have never imagined "planes being used as weapons" or "we could have never stopped the attacks" or "we never had any warnings," all these pronouncements are just blatantly untrue. Anyone who starts to read the timeline will realize that.

http://www.readbuzz.com/home/index....story_id=1e6fedc5-0acf-42f8-aa32-e554a04e65b8

(My bolding the two last sentences) "We're just neutral". CT's seem to have a different version of neutrality than the rest of the world.

Sounds like the Standard CT Plausible Deniability Shield, "We're not saying anything, we're just asking questions".

/S

 

[chipmunk stew]

I would add dz (anyone have a real name?) of 911blogger.com and perhaps Jon Gold of yourbbsucks.com

Also, Michael Wolsey of visibility911.com

 

[Triterope]

Don't forget the "disgraced whistleblower" category:

Lauro Chavez - Alleged whistleblower. Claimed to have served in CENTCOM, where he was one of many in the organization who quickly realized that 9/11 could not have been perpetrated by hijacked planes. Was declared a fraud when his DD-214 form, posted to the Internet by Alex Jones as proof of Chavez's validity, contained several obvious instances of tampering.

(Previous discussion: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64837)

Jesse MacBeth and Sibel Edmonds need entries too, but I don't know how to quickly sum up their stories.

 

[Panoply_Prefect]

Tnx people, for your input. I'll try to put together a new version with added entries tomorrow. If anyone could help me summarize, I'd be most obliged.

Cheers and goodnight,

/S

 

[The Silver Shadow]

What about Nico Haupt and his Sockenpüppchen "Killtown"?

<Borat>Killtown? He is retard </Borat>

 

[FactCheck]

I think what's missing is the histories of these people. Some of them were conspiracy theorists WELL before 9/11.

 

[911eyewitness]

So,



URL REMOVED SO I CAN POST Richard Siegel, author of URL REMOVED SO I CAN POSt 9-11 Eyewitness. Apparently he has had URL REMOVED SO I CAN POST with other parts of the truther-community and seem to consider it a fraud. He has URL REMOVED SO I CAN POST called out for all truther-leaders to take a lie detector test, to weed out all infiltrators. Siegel has his own URL REMOVED SO I CAN POST forums, and URL REMOVED SO I CAN POST blog.

If someone who have seen 911-Eyewitness could sum up what position Siegel takes, I would very much appreciate it.

/S

You are quite confused; Blue Star Media Group (Dave Shaw (an alias) and Jim Brewster actually - maybe) is the research, manufacture and distribution for all 911Eyewitness products. I contributed my raw tape for their product and some interviews. It says "Copyright Richard A. Siegel & Blue Star Media Group" because my stuff is mine and theirs is theirs. In fact they screwed me as I was supposed to be in the shadows as a silhouette and not a major thing, it was another trick played on me.

They used interviews of me and you can glean from that what you wish or you can ask me and see what comes out of that.

You list the 911eyewitness forums as mine and they are not. I frequented them in the past.

You list me as threatening to bring suit against the disinfo agents Waddell and Sofia when it is them who hired lawyers and threatened me. I do not have money to waste on trash dispensers but I will protect my rights.

I appreciate you linked to the fraud article and the Truth and Lies conference I hope to create.

My "REAL" work is being released this week, after taxes, at SORRY I CANT POST URLS YET. The reasons for this release are in the support pages here at SORRY I CANT POST URLS YET. I am tired of people distorting and controlling this data and as I see no one can be trusted to bring it out correct - I will do it myself. I am already getting threats in the email from places I never expected. Here is a link to what is going on SORRY I CANT POST URLS YET.

I went and met these people June of last year in Chicago and then LA. After that and what they did over the summer I heard and saw things that boggle the mind. A book is needed and even then it will read more sci-fi than reality. Frank Zappa put it well "everything they told you is lies".

So, why would it matter what I think anyway? Who cares? With the knowledge I have and 5 cents you are short the dime and like the guy said "I never heard of him". Here is a link to video of my speaking engagements so you can hear what I say: SORRY I CANT POST URLS YET.

 

[Gravy]

Grrrr!

Ha ha! Don't be afraid, Rick. It's just me, your favorite "slick professional, true cointelpro," the "professional debater" who "is famous for allegedly being the agent in the beginning of the 911 Mysteries video compilation" and who "deserves his paycheck" as "part of the government," and "is like a tiger in the jungle" waiting to pounce on unwary conspiracists.

The reason I'm saying hi is to ask when we are going on the outing that you invited me on. Remember?

I was trying to get all the people in the 911scholars to take lie detector tests and do hypnosis. That is when Jones freaked out and tossed me out of their forum. This would at least whittle down those whose “works” have little mettle. How would you like to go along with me, and some of the others from both sides, for that outing? Even I want to see what I remember that is either blocked or forgotten from that day. Can you imagine how much trust you and others would gain? What better proof of truth? I have no fear of it.

Oh, when's the happy day, Ricky?

 

[Gravy]

Frank Zappa put it well "everything they told you is lies".

Zappa also said,
Aahh ah ahahahaaa, aahh ah ahahahaaa
What will you do if we let you go home,
And the plastics all melted,
And so is the chrome?
Who are the brain police?

I'm just sayin'.

 

[Brainster]

You are quite confused; Blue Star Media Group (Dave Shaw (an alias) and Jim Brewster actually - maybe) is the research, manufacture and distribution for all 911Eyewitness products. I contributed my raw tape for their product and some interviews. It says "Copyright Richard A. Siegel & Blue Star Media Group" because my stuff is mine and theirs is theirs. In fact they screwed me as I was supposed to be in the shadows as a silhouette and not a major thing, it was another trick played on me.

Rick, thanks for the background, I was not aware that you were not the filmmaker of 9-11 Eyewitness, just the raw footage. So you didn't do the highlighting of the helicopters, or the "Mission Accomplished" bit either? I would like to correct some posts if that's the case.

 

[911eyewitness]

Rick, thanks for the background, I was not aware that you were not the filmmaker of 9-11 Eyewitness, just the raw footage. So you didn't do the highlighting of the helicopters, or the "Mission Accomplished" bit either? I would like to correct some posts if that's the case.

My pleasure. All narration, scripting, writing, editing, sound, etc, was done by Dave Shaw (alias), of Blue Star Media Group (with, or without Jim Brewster as I have no idea who he worked with on it) on all the 911eyewitness offerings. My only contribution was access to the tapes. When they flew me into NY to get them from my archives they asked for interviews about it and I gave them. They said they would put me as dark silhouette. They did more than that and recorded every word I said for 27/7 the whole trip.

The deal was supposed to be I could remain my quiet subsistence farmer boy in Europe and these tapes may "save the world". I would not be put in public the face. When they launched it in NY Sept 2005 they asked me to go in to help launch and that was the first time I saw it. Frankly was very displeased and the only reason it went out was that it was shown to me 4 hours before debut and the associated pressure kept me from bursting their bubble and pulling it. A cointelpro trick I have since learned.

Chopper 4, who knows what they were doing? My only statement on that helicopter was that I saw it through my binoculars and it looked as if a rescue was finally going to happen. I saw it with open door, man in door hanging out holding the harness apparatus. I let the binoculars down to hang on its straps around my neck while I grabbed the camera to take in the action. By the time I got the camera up to the scene the helicopter was going and so was the South Tower. If that is enhanced, changed, altered, manipulated or put out of context I can only scream from the little holes (my websites) and keep plodding along. I had seen a video from a helicopter; I do believe it was a police helicopter, which seems to have this scene - including the harness from the inside on Youtube. I do not know where it is now. But I believe each of those helicopters were equipped for video and would like to see it and know who the people were.

You understand I have been erased from 911toofers sites, language and minds as “disinfo” and my tape is labeled the same? Imagine? The only verified recording they had and they want to use the distortions of it? The more I screamed that they are severely editing my stuff the more they ignore and tell their “troops” to never go to read his words or your mind will burn in hell.

I am releasing that tape as 911Raw because of the distortions from Sofia and her 911Mysteries, Franchi and his plagiarized thefts, and a few others who have used the work and made claims, money and false fame from that evidence that has been distorted, edited and made to show something other than what happened that day. I have found them dicking with the sound, chopping out segments putting other things in and using google files for evidence. What the?

You want to see it? See it real. The stunning details will feed the frenzy for the next year or two. I do not think that government nor 911truth will like what is in the tapes as the recent rash of threats, hackings and phone calls shows that neither side wants them out.

I wish there was a murder investigation. I lost friends and investors on that day in South Tower. No crime scene was made. Investigation, trial and conviction of those 3000 murders was done in the media and forgotten, that is not the right way. While government and media play up the emotional body thing without mentioning the dead never got their investigation into their murder they all remain complicit.

The fact remains that the government is holding evidence (or destroyed same) that would blow most of the theory away, or show it to be true. People are left with the question, "Could our government be the first in history to be honest?” You answer that question.

I see you have the same problem here as the toofers. A packed leadership bent on distortion of facts to push their agendas. Nothing new in Disneyland.

Rick

 

[uk_dave]

I can see you've had a hard life, rick.

Especially being recorded 27/7.

So, do you always just read whatever script someone puts in front of you?

I have to admit, I didn't get very far through your video. If I recall correctly (and I may not, so apologies in advance if I have you mixed up with someone else) I got as far as your (or your scriptwriters) analysis of the helicopter footage.

I stopped watching around about that time because, like with so many 'truther' video attempts, you started telling me what to see, even though what you wanted me to see was not what I was seeing on the screen.

In particular you (or your scriptwriter) had a neat little trick of trying to make the viewer suspicious of the sunlight reflecting off the helicopter. Of course, you never said it was sunlight reflecting off the helicopter, as this would have lacked the necessary sense of evil deeds afoot. No, you (or your scriptwriter) edited the footage for your analysis so that a previously shown shot of sunlight reflecting off the tail rotor blades was omitted from your careful analysis of the footage.

Tsk tsk rick (or your scriptwriter).

Nothing new in Disneyland indeed.

 

[gumboot]

I wish there was a murder investigation.

Hi there Rick, welcome to the JREF forums. Thank you for giving your insight and providing clarity. In my experience accuracy of facts is valued here above anything else.

Regarding the above comment, are you aware that in the wake of the 9/11 Attacks the Federal Bureau of Investigation undertook their largest criminal investigation in history, involving hundreds upon hundreds of special agents?

Are you aware that the painstaking efforts of these FBI agents and the officials of a number of police organisations around the globe (including in Germany) has led to the successful conviction of several people involved in the attacks?

Unfortunately the direct perpetrators of these deeds died with their victims, thinking they would be blessed by Allah for all eternity. Frankly I think the instant deaths they experienced were too good for them, however regardless, the fact is they are dead and can never be punished for their crimes.

If, like myself, you value justice, you will be keenly following the fate of one Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - the alleged mastermind behind the attacks. The same painstaking work of that enormous FBI investigation will again be applied to ensure this piece of human excrement is found guilty for the death of nearly 3,000 innocents.

I think it's a great disservice to the FBI agents and literally thousands of other people who were involved in the largest criminal investigation in human history, spanning several continents, to claim "there was no murder investigation". This simply is not true.

Gravy at one point presented an overview of the number of organisations and number of people that were involved in these investigations, as well as an idea of the millions upon millions of dollars that have been expended. Hopefully he will read this and provide a link to this staggering list.

-Gumboot

 

[911eyewitness]

Hi there Rick, welcome to the JREF forums. Thank you for giving your insight and providing clarity. In my experience accuracy of facts is valued here above anything else.

Regarding the above comment, are you aware that in the wake of the 9/11 Attacks the Federal Bureau of Investigation undertook their largest criminal investigation in history, involving hundreds upon hundreds of special agents?

I think it's a great disservice to the FBI agents and literally thousands of other people who were involved in the largest criminal investigation in human history, spanning several continents, to claim "there was no murder investigation". This simply is not true.

-Gumboot

Thank you. Some seem to have that inclination to get to the real facts.

There has been no murder investigation. Not one. Any investigation you may be thinking was a murder investigation will be clearly marked NOT one.

Now you can investigate metal and initiation points (carefully avoiding anything else) and call it a National Institute of Standards and Technology report. You can investigate phone conversations and government incompetence and call it a 911 Commission report. You can investigate people talking nasty things against those that claim to rule (terrorists) the German investigations. You can investigate those who disagree with any law in the USA (also a terrorist according to the Patriot I and II). But none of these is a "murder investigation" with a "sealed crime scene" with the proper protocol followed. The FBI never started a murder investigation, the "state" never instigated one, and if you have the number of that case please provide it?

If any murder investigation was started, if a crime scene was sealed and forensics taken from the start - instead of a cleanup, there would be enough evidence to calm most skeptics. As it is the "state" fans the flames of their own conspiracy becoming complicit in doing so.

But that distraction is not the big issue for me either, if you care for my opinion at all. It was the completion of what the corporate president claimed was the goal of the terrorists, jealousy of our freedoms. Stripping them away from the people through massive restrictions is not the answer to keeping jealousy at bay and in fact makes that "governance" the terrorist. I am what you might call a strong "self-government" advocate Self-government is the natural enemy of all monarchies, dictatorships, and the largest obstruction to self-rule - the "corporate democracy".

In fact the real disservice on September 11 and up to now has been provided by those who rule you and include those you mention.

 

[R.Mackey]

Now you can investigate metal and initiation points (carefully avoiding anything else) and call it a National Institute of Standards and Technology report.
...

In fact the real disservice on September 11 and up to now has been provided by those who rule you and include those you mention.

Oh look, another person who hasn't cracked the cover of the NIST report, but who claims to know what it contains.

And by the way, Gumboot is a Kiwi. Not everyone here is an American, you know.