What is paranormal in Homeopathy

[Jeff Corey]

Just request Dr. Mas or other homeopath, he may take you to many homeopathic clinics & stasfy you for its working, practically. Nothing manipulative in this. Just try.

No. Clinics practicing quackery prove nothing. Scientific testing does.
Just repeat that over and over to yourself enough times to dissolve all the silica in your brain, and you will see.

 

[Jocce]

Just request Dr. Mas or other homeopath, he may take you to many homeopathic clinics & stasfy you for its working, practically. Nothing manipulative in this. Just try.

I will, as soon as I return from the next AAA (Alien Abduction Army) meeting. They're going to prove their case first. YAY! I'll make sure to ask the aliens I'm bound to met about homeopathy.

 

[thaiboxerken]

If you see Penn and Teller personally, I bet they could have you believing in all kinds of weird paranormal stuff if that was their desire. These guys might be able to convince you that you really do have a quarter producing portal inside of your ear....

 

[Chris Haynes]

Okay, I slogged through 19 pages of this thread. I did it while ripping almost 2 decades worth of CD's to mp3 (though after I read a book while ripping the first set of CD's).

I did notice that Dr. MAS has been suspended for letting multiple users use his account. Sigh, too bad. Though it does keep things straight when people keep their identities clear (note to those using Dr. MAS's account, there are several members on this forum who live in the same household... some are married couples, others are parents and kids... and some are siblings --- many members from the same place, it can work!).

I will be away when the suspension is over (a chaparone for a middle school band trip. I suspect that Sunday evening I will need mass quanities of wine to recover), so I will add something to the discussion that may or may not be welcome. It is in reply to a thread that I participated on H'pathy. I was summarily banned after ONE post, yet they still send their spam to my Hotmail address. It does pertain to this outlandish claim:

quote:
...Dr. MAS: Yes, a very simple and good question.

We may start from this point. I claim we can treat an incureable case of any disease entirely with the help of homeopathic medicines.

If you detail us (homeopaths) to treat 10 AIDS / Hepatitis etc confirmed patients and if we succeed in curing 8 out 10 then you might confirm that "Homeopathic medicines have good healing effects / property against human diseases".

..

The response to my one post as "Pacific Parent" made reference to a "virusmyth" website that has all sorts of misinformation about HIV/AIDS. I believe the reply was made by "Homeopath Syed". Oh, I was rigtht... I found it in the Google Cache.. check it out: Cached H'pathy Thread

Well... all you learned Pakistani Homeopaths -- your cures are going to be needed VERY soon! It seems that HIV/AIDS is going to be a very real presence:
Pakistan on the brink of widespread HIV/AIDS Epidemic

I personally believe their behavior diminishes the perception that should be given to their fellow countrymen. I, for one, was assisted at a crucial point in college by a gentleman from Pakistan who DID follow the Korah. This man was an intelligent engineering student who would be properly embarrassed by the lack of science education evidenced by both "Dr. MAS" and "Homeopath Syed".

 

[Homeo Man]

After watching the whole “DRAMA” staged at Randi forum, first I would like to ask, when you say, “homeopathy does not work” then what do you mean by that? Because, without understanding your point of view, I am not sure, we can discuss this issue.

Homeopaths are practicing homeopathy for the last 200 years. They have very good clinical experiences to claim that homeopathy does work. If you say, it does not work then what is your base of this claim? Our claim is based on of our clinical experiences and results. What is your base of saying homeopathy does not work?

Homeopaths claim that we treat patients. We also treat diseases but disease is not our primary target. We take one disease as single symptom, beside disease; we also take other symptoms, which the patient is suffering too, which may not have direct link with actual disease.

We claim, Argentum Nitricum gives relief to that patient who suffers from purulent ophthalmic discharge with intense pains, which gets better in open air.

Arg Nit also cures bloody mucous stools with masses of epithelium connected by muco lymph with sensation of severe bearing down in the hypogastrium region where ulceration is suspected.

If you say, “No” Arg Nit does not work for such patient (remember, I did not mention any disease name in the above claim). Then you bring that patient to me, I will cure that patient with Arg Nit. If I fail, then your point is valid. I am ready to accept everything.

 

[flume]

Originally posted by Homeo Man We claim, Argentum Nitricum gives relief to that patient who suffers from purulent ophthalmic discharge with intense pains, which gets better in open air.

Arg Nit also cures bloody mucous stools with masses of epithelium connected by muco lymph with sensation of severe bearing down in the hypogastrium region where ulceration is suspected.

If you say, “No” Arg Nit does not work for such patient (remember, I did not mention any disease name in the above claim).

What dilution?

 

[Vikram]

After watching the whole “DRAMA” staged at Randi forum, first I would like to ask, when you say, “homeopathy does not work” then what do you mean by that? Because, without understanding your point of view, I am not sure, we can discuss this issue.

Homeopaths are practicing homeopathy for the last 200 years. They have very good clinical experiences to claim that homeopathy does work. If you say, it does not work then what is your base of this claim? Our claim is based on of our clinical experiences and results. What is your base of saying homeopathy does not work?

Homeopaths claim that we treat patients. We also treat diseases but disease is not our primary target. We take one disease as single symptom, beside disease; we also take other symptoms, which the patient is suffering too, which may not have direct link with actual disease.

We claim, Argentum Nitricum gives relief to that patient who suffers from purulent ophthalmic discharge with intense pains, which gets better in open air.

Arg Nit also cures bloody mucous stools with masses of epithelium connected by muco lymph with sensation of severe bearing down in the hypogastrium region where ulceration is suspected.

If you say, “No” Arg Nit does not work for such patient (remember, I did not mention any disease name in the above claim). Then you bring that patient to me, I will cure that patient with Arg Nit. If I fail, then your point is valid. I am ready to accept everything.

First of all, the fact that a patient's condition improves after taking your medicine should not lead you to the conclusion that your medicine works. Here are two questions for you to consider:

1) Could it possibly be that the course of the disease is such that it would self-resolve within a few days even without any medicine?

What you describe as "purulent ophthalmic discharge with intense pains" is perhaps bacterial conjunctivitis, which is largely self-resolving. As per this link and this link, bacterial conjunctivitis spontaneously self-resolves in 64% of the cases. Which means that even if I don't give any medication to the patient, 64 out of 100 are going to be 'cured' anyway. This is why you need to test every drug against a placebo (in the case of homeopathic medicines, a simple untreated sugar pill can be used as a placebo.) Your medicine can be considered to be effective ONLY if its cure rate is significantly greater than that of the placebo.

2) Could it possibly be that psychological factors are playing a role?

It has often been shown that pain (and some other symptoms) are relieved to some extent when a person believes that he/she is taking a potent medicine. Therefore, in addition to using a placebo, the psychological factor needs to be eliminated by ensuring that the patient does not know whether he/she is receiving the drug or the placebo. Also, the doctor who is administering the medicine and who is going to follow up with the patient should not be aware of whether the patient is receiving the medicine or the placebo. This is known as 'Double Blind Testing'.


Therefore, concluding that homeopathy works simply because you have had good clinical experience with it is wrong. If homeopathic medications are effective, what is it that prevents them from passing Double Blind Placebo trials?

 

[Homeo Man]

That is very very good question and I would say a sensible and healthy approach to take this discussion forward.

Yes, most of the (50 to 70 %) symptoms are those which subside itself without medication or for those symptoms no medication required. 50 to 30 % are those cases which require medication.

In no medication cases, if the symptoms are acute, then patients suffers a lot and symptoms take more time to subside, if you put that patient on homeopathic medicines or allopathic drugs then the patient will come out from danger in short time. Why we put that patient on remedies or drugs because that patient may falls in other 30% cases stage where medication is necessary.

The difference involves in stages, stage one without medication, patient suffers a lot, stage two with medication, patients gets better and recovers soon. I hope this answer your question.

 

[Homeo Man]

What dilution?

Homeopathic remedies start with simple substances, such as herbs, minerals, or animal products. These substances are first crushed and dissolved in a specified amount of a substance—usually grain alcohol or lactose, mechanically shaken, then stored. This is the "mother tincture." Homeopaths further dilute tinctures with alcohol or lactose, either 1 part to 10 (written as "x") or 1 part to 100 (written as "c"), and then succuss these tinctures, yielding a 1x or 1c dilution. A remedy that is diluted 1:10, involves one part of the remedy to 9 parts of the diluent (which is usually a 20% alcohol water solution). This 1: 10 dilution is called a 1X dilution. Making another 1:10 of the first 1X is called 2X. Doing it again makes it 3X.

 

[Zep]

Homeopathic remedies start with simple substances, such as herbs, minerals, or animal products. These substances are first crushed and dissolved in a specified amount of a substance—usually grain alcohol or lactose, mechanically shaken, then stored. This is the "mother tincture." Homeopaths further dilute tinctures with alcohol or lactose, either 1 part to 10 (written as "x") or 1 part to 100 (written as "c"), and then succuss these tinctures, yielding a 1x or 1c dilution. A remedy that is diluted 1:10, involves one part of the remedy to 9 parts of the diluent (which is usually a 20% alcohol water solution). This 1: 10 dilution is called a 1X dilution. Making another 1:10 of the first 1X is called 2X. Doing it again makes it 3X.

What are the usual dilutions for remedies used on patients, please? Could you please express these in mathematical ratios of the original tincture to the final solution, for example: 1:100,000.

 

[Vikram]

That is very very good question and I would say a sensible and healthy approach to take this discussion forward.

Yes, most of the (50 to 70 %) symptoms are those which subside itself without medication or for those symptoms no medication required. 50 to 30 % are those cases which require medication.

In no medication cases, if the symptoms are acute, then patients suffers a lot and symptoms take more time to subside, if you put that patient on homeopathic medicines or allopathic drugs then the patient will come out from danger in short time. Why we put that patient on remedies or drugs because that patient may falls in other 30% cases stage where medication is necessary.

The difference involves in stages, stage one without medication, patient suffers a lot, stage two with medication, patients gets better and recovers soon. I hope this answer your question.

No it doesn't. The main question in my post was the one at the very end:

If homeopathic medications are effective, what is it that prevents them from passing Double Blind Placebo trials?

If what you claim about homeopathy bringing the patient out of "danger in short time" is true, then homeopathic drugs should be able to pass DB Placebo trials. Why then do all such trials of homeopathic drugs show cure rates equal to those of placebos?

So to repeat my main question:

If homeopathic medications are effective, what is it that prevents them from passing Double Blind Placebo trials?

 

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

If homeopathic medications are effective, what is it that prevents them from passing Double Blind Placebo trials?

Please also remember, Homeoman, that individualisation is completely irrelevant to this question. Trials can involve, and have involved, as much individualisation as the homeopaths want. There have been non-individualised trials, but these have mostly been performed by homeopaths as well.

Even with individualisation homeopathy fails to show any benefit over giving a placebo, which is another way of saying, it doesn't work.

Do you acknowledge that if homeopathy is no better than placebo then it has failed to work? The reason for getting you to confirm this is because numerous homoepaths we have debated with have such a poor idea of how to find out whether something works or not they deny this basic point.

 

[Kumar]

Why then do all such trials of homeopathic drugs show cure rates equal to those of placebos?

So to repeat my main question:

If homeopathic medications are effective, what is it that prevents them from passing Double Blind Placebo trials?

To awnser it, Pls tell as per data available with you from which you are interpreting:-

What is/can be cure & treatment rate 'just by placebo' in comparisn to all problems/diseases?

What is cure & treatment rate by homeopathy in comparisn to all problems/diseases?

What is cure & treatment rate by modern conventional system in comparisn to all problems/diseases?

I mean suppose people gets 500 problems(all types) on an average during their lifetime. What percentage of this 500 can be cured & treated by 'just by placebo', by homeopathy or by MCS?

 

[Homeo Man]

What are the usual dilutions for remedies used on patients, please? Could you please express these in mathematical ratios of the original tincture to the final solution, for example: 1:100,000.

For each dilution, we have different technique. We mostly prepare medicines in ethyle alcohol.


Please complete this equation

AgNo3 +C2H5OH --->

You will get answers of all your irrelevant questions.

Why you need starting material AgNo3 in 30x?

 

[Homeo Man]

No it doesn't. The main question in my post was the one at the very end:



If what you claim about homeopathy bringing the patient out of "danger in short time" is true, then homeopathic drugs should be able to pass DB Placebo trials. Why then do all such trials of homeopathic drugs show cure rates equal to those of placebos?

So to repeat my main question:

If homeopathic medications are effective, what is it that prevents them from passing Double Blind Placebo trials?

I am not against double blind test. Kindly re-consider our CLAIM. We are bound to our claim. We can prove it in DBT.

 

[Kumar]

Even with individualisation homeopathy fails to show any benefit over giving a placebo, which is another way of saying, it doesn't work.

Do you acknowledge that if homeopathy is no better than placebo then it has failed to work? The reason for getting you to confirm this is because numerous homoepaths we have debated with have such a poor idea of how to find out whether something works or not they deny this basic point.

I like these snips;-

Authority does not rest with scientists, when emotion, need, and desperation are involved. Scientists are human beings, too; they can be deceived and self-deceived..

Scientists can be wrong — sometimes, very wrong. The history of science is replete with serious errors of judgment, bad research, faked results, and simple mistakes, made by scientists in every field. ....Unfortunately, though science itself is self-correcting, sometimes the scientists involved do not correct themselves.
http://www.randi.org/research/faq.html#randi

 

[Zep]

Please complete this equation

AgNo3 +C2H5OH �_

You will get answers of irrelevant questions.


Please complete this equation

AgNo3 +C2H5OH --->

You will get answers of irrelevant questions.

??? Chemical equations have nothing to do with what I asked for. Silver nitrate in light alcohol? Where is the mathematics in that anyway?

I'm after your calculations for the homeopathic dilution ratios of "mother tincture" in base solute, for common remedies given to homeopathic patients, expressed in proper mathematical fashion. The composition of these remedies is quite irrelevant.

Now, is that clear? Have I asked you in an understandable fashion? Or would you like me to restate the question a different way?

 

[Vikram]

To awnser it, Pls tell as per data available with you from which you are interpreting:-

What is/can be cure & treatment rate 'just by placebo' in comparisn to all problems/diseases?

What is cure & treatment rate by homeopathy in comparisn to all problems/diseases?

What is cure & treatment rate by modern conventional system in comparisn to all problems/diseases?

I mean suppose people gets 500 problems(all types) on an average during their lifetime. What percentage of this 500 can be cured & treated by 'just by placebo', by homeopathy or by MCS?

Whether there is any point in give senseble answer/explnation to Kumar when mass experiance since long time show that Kumar being impervious to learning/knowledge?

 

[Zep]

I am not against double blind test. Kindly re-consider our CLAIM. We are bound to our claim. We can prove it in DBT.

Your claim's protocol does not attempt to distinguish homeopathic cure from placebo results. Instead, it tries to include placebo results as cures - it tries to claim EVERY cure is a homeopathic cure. So do you think that is a good claim protocol?

A better test is to be able to distinguish a standard 30C homeopathic remedy from standard base solute with no tincture in it, under double-blind placebo-controlled conditions (i.e. standard scientific method). The remedy and solute are obtained from a reputable homeopathic supplier, and you can use any method you like to test them apart.

Do you think this is possible? Would you like to try that test?

 

[Mojo]

For each dilution, we have different technique. We mostly prepare medicines in ethyle alcohol.


Please complete this equation

AgNo3 +C2H5OH --->

You will get answers of all your irrelevant questions.

Are you implying that homeopathic remedies work because during the potentization process they undergo a chemical reaction with the solvent?

Why you need starting material AgNo3 in 30x?

Because otherwise you are just using neat alcohol as a treatment.

Cheers!