What is paranormal in Homeopathy

Yeah, I'm kinda bummed about Homeo Man. I mean he's got the condescending use of smilies down pat, but he doesn't have the supercool avatar that has eyes that follow you around the room. That was freaky!
 
In my opinion, agno3 when reacts with c2h5oh it makes another product. I don't why they want to consider agno3 again as one mole when it is not there in 2nd potency. may be I am wrong.
 
Dr. MAS said:
In my opinion, agno3 when reacts with c2h5oh it makes another product. I don't why they want to consider agno3 again as one mole when it is not there in 2nd potency. may be I am wrong.

1 mole is a fixed number of items. The total number of items will not have increased.
 
Dr Mas wrote In my opinion, agno3 when reacts with c2h5oh it makes another product. I don't why they want to consider agno3 again as one mole when it is not there in 2nd potency. may be I am wrong.

Well silver cation is an oxidant, sometimes it is used as a spot check for primary alcohols (such as ethanol) and aldehydes to give a silver mirror i.e. Ag0 as the reduction product and an aldehyde (i.e. CH3CH=O) or carboxylic acid as the oxidation product. You would have to warm the solution first, however, if all the silver is precipitated as a mirror, it is not therre in the next dilution. (Note that nitrate anion is also a potent oxidant, consider gunpowder, however, in aqueous ethanol, it's activity is diminished.) Now we've down our Organic Chemistry practical would you kindly tell us the next step?

edited for spelling
 
The discussion is quite interesting. I suggest not to throw mud on others and seriously take part in discussion.

The reactions are of many types. I spent my whole life playing with chemicals. I have very good collection of chemicals in my personal lab, these include those chemicals which homeopaths use in making potencies. Still I have no idea what you want to discuss about AgNo(3) reaction with C(2)H(5)OH.

If you react both reactant and new compound will form.

See: the reaction practically from my live web cam installed in the lab.


homeoman25nn.jpg

This is silver nitrate

homeman13dl.jpg

Chemical Reaction is in progress.


At this stage, dr.mas is very right in pointing out that when “Beginning material” is changed into “Resulting substance” then you can’t count the previous beginning material for the second potency in Avogadro number. This number law is failed here.

Let me explain more, a chemical reaction is the material changing from a “beginning mass” to a “resulting substance”. In the result of a chemical reaction, new material or materials are made, along with the disappearance of the mass that changed to make the new. Homeopathic substance Aconite or belladonna have so many inorganic and organic “COMPOUNDS”, few will react with water or alcohol during mother tincture formation, few are soluble in water or alcohol and few are not. Few will form new compounds during reaction and few will not but how Avogadro's Law (Avogadro's law: equal volumes of all gases, measured under the same conditions of temperature and pressure, contain the same number of molecules) is applicable throughout dilution process? This is beyond my comprehension.

This law was first known as “Avogadro's Hypothesis”. It was proposed in explanation of Gay-Lussac's Law of Combining Volumes, in which Avogadro also reasoned that elements could consist of 'molecules'. You can’t say, I took one drop of belladonna, because it has so many organic and inorganic compounds. Why not to say, I took one drop of calcium, phosphorous etc or one drop of alkaloids of belladonna.

There are few Belladonna Alkaloids; which can be prepared from belladonna plant.

Atropine (a component of belladonna obtained from belladonna that is administered via injection, eye drops, or in oral form to relax muscles by inhibiting nerve responses. Used to dilate the pupils and as an antispasmodic.)

Scopolamine HBr (Hyoscine HBr) (a component of belladonna which comes from a plant called "deadly nightshade," it causes drowsiness and amnesia and sometimes a sense of euphoria)

L-hyoscyamine (Anaspaz)

L-alkaloids of Belladonna (Belafoline)

Tincture of belladonna alkaloids (Belladonna Tincture, USP)

Homatropine HBr

Homatropine methylbromide

Methscopolamine (Pamine)

These were prepared by utilizing belladonna plant. How can you take one mole of all these inorganic and organic compounds just to demonstrate that 30x dilution does not have any molecule of belladonna by explaining avogadro’s equation. When simple alcohol can also form new compound with oxygen alone.

Alcohol plus oxygen becomes vinegar and a molecule of water.

C2H5OH + O2 --------- HC2H3O2 + H2O
 
@Homeo Man

Just to muddy the waters again.

In any chemical reaction, (i) charge is conserved, (ii) mass is conserved. While Dr Mas is right to point out that a beginning material will change to a resulting material, it is a fact that mass is conserved. If mass is not conserved then you are not doing chemistry you are doing nuclear physics. This is the point from where we don’t understand you are coming. That is that you have 1 g belladonna alkaloids, whatever they are, when you dissolve them you will still have 1 g of belladonna alkaloids - the mass balance is maintained always, and I don't even have to talk about Avogadro's number. If I have misrepresented your position or insulted your intelligence then excuse me. Please note that the dissolution of most inorganic compounds in water does represent a chemical reaction inasmuch as you have broken strong chemical bonds and formed new substances.


As to why Dr Mas wanted to discuss Ag+ oxidation of ethanol I have no idea; if he wants to illustrate something he hasn’t done it yet.
edited for spelling
 
anor277 said:
While Dr Mas is right to point out that a beginning material will change to a resulting material, ........ I don't even have to talk about Avogadro's number......... Please note that the dissolution of most inorganic compounds in water does represent a chemical reaction inasmuch as you have broken strong chemical bonds and formed new substances.

edited for spelling

Now you don't have to speak on avogadro's number. This means, you are much clear now on avogadro's application in new compound formations. As you admitted everything, if you kindly reply in Yes or No, if a new compound is formed during potency formation then will you again reconsider the original starting material in avogadro's number equation when we know it has already been changed into another substance?

Rest of your comments were irrelevent to the running topic. Hence does not require my comments.
 
Homeo Man wrote
Now you don't have to speak on avogadro's number. This means, you are much clear now on avogadro's application in new compound formations. As you admitted everything, if you kindly reply in Yes or No, if a new compound is formed during potency formation then will you again reconsider the original starting material in avogadro's number equation when we know it has already been changed into another substance?

Are you asking me whether a new compound is formed after (as opposed to during) dissolution? The answer is no.
Would you restate the question?
 
Homeo Man said:
These were prepared by utilizing belladonna plant. How can you take one mole of all these inorganic and organic compounds just to demonstrate that 30x dilution does not have any molecule of belladonna by explaining avogadro’s equation. When simple alcohol can also form new compound with oxygen alone.

Alcohol plus oxygen becomes vinegar and a molecule of water.

C2H5OH + O2 --------- HC2H3O2 + H2O
Are you now suggesting that homeopathic remedies work because they have traces of vinegar in them? Why not just give the patient some vinegar and not bother with all that tedious dilution and succussion? It doesn't matter whether the original solute reacts with the solvent: there still won't be enough atoms there for any to be present in the final preparation. Chemical reactions do not produce new matter.
 
And having created new compounds, HomeoMan, what happens to them at the NEXT dilution? You know - the one where you simply add more water or alcohol?
 
Good day good folks,
excuse me if I pop in uninvited, but you've totally lost me here.

- If I have a fixed amount of substance, how on earth can diluition increase that amount?
- If a chemical reaction occurs (and it doesn't always happens, take elements like Au for example as stated some page ago) this will involve only a proportional amount of molecoles of the water/alcohool, not the whole jug. When diluited, part of the newly formed compounds wil go down the drain...

Thanks for your help in making me understand this, and you're all most welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Gaga said:
Good day good folks,
excuse me if I pop in uninvited, but you've totally lost me here.

- If I have a fixed amount of substance, how on earth can diluition increase that amount?
- If a chemical reaction occurs (and it doesn't always happens, take elements like Au for example as stated some page ago) this will involve only a proportional amount of molecoles of the water/alcohool, not the whole jug. When diluited, part of the newly formed compounds wil go down the drain...

Thanks for your help in making me understand this, and you're all most welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
You're wrong. You're trying to apply logic to homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic. Or is it magick? In any case, it's better if you turn off your brain before trying to understand homeopathic "theories." And it's even better if you do some potentization of your own and dilute your blood with alcohol. Whiskey works fine. :)
 
Gaga said:
Good day good folks,
excuse me if I pop in uninvited, but you've totally lost me here.

- If I have a fixed amount of substance, how on earth can diluition increase that amount?
- If a chemical reaction occurs (and it doesn't always happens, take elements like Au for example as stated some page ago) this will involve only a proportional amount of molecoles of the water/alcohool, not the whole jug. When diluited, part of the newly formed compounds wil go down the drain...

Thanks for your help in making me understand this, and you're all most welcome to correct me if I'm wrong.
Shush! Don't tell him the end of the story before he has read the beginning and the middle!
 
Donks said:
You're wrong. You're trying to apply logic to homeopathy. Homeopathy is magic. Or is it magick? In any case, it's better if you turn off your brain before trying to understand homeopathic "theories." And it's even better if you do some potentization of your own and dilute your blood with alcohol. Whiskey works fine. :)

Ok, doc... Lagavulin is okay? (I won't diluite nor succuss it though :D)
 
I'm not quite sure what the photos add to your description homeoman.

They would be indistinguishable from, say, a randfom person in a shirt pouring water into a beaker.
They don't add any validity to your claims.

And, please don't take this the wrong way, but if that bench is where you prepare your remedies I have a suspicion that they may not just have particles of remedy in them.
It hardly appears to be surgically sterile.


Anyway, back to the debate:

Are you claiming that when you repeatedly create dilutions from an original sample (containing a finite amount of molecules) all subsequent dilutions will continue to contain an amount of the original substance?
And that there is no limit to how many times this can be repeated?

Is that what you are saying?
 
Ashles said:
I'm not quite sure what the photos add to your description homeoman.

They would be indistinguishable from, say, a randfom person in a shirt pouring water into a beaker.
They don't add any validity to your claims.

And, please don't take this the wrong way, but if that bench is where you prepare your remedies I have a suspicion that they may not just have particles of remedy in them.
It hardly appears to be surgically sterile.


Anyway, back to the debate:

Are you claiming that when you repeatedly create dilutions from an original sample (containing a finite amount of molecules) all subsequent dilutions will continue to contain an amount of the original substance?
And that there is no limit to how many times this can be repeated?

Is that what you are saying?

No I think he is saying alike:
{not exact chemical reaction but just for example}

O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on.

Better calculate by

Say one part of NaCl consist of 1Million molecules of NaCl & 99 part of water/alcohol consist of 99 million of water/alcohol molecules(you can correct) in 1c. You can take take one gram of NaCl & 9 part of lactose for 1x, count their molecules, apply the chemical reactions & calculate furthur with chemical reactions.

Btw, whether size & volume which they occupy is same for all atoms in view of Avagdro law/number?
 
Kumar said:
No I think he is saying alike:
{not exact chemical reaction but just for example}

O2+H2O= H2O3 or HO+H2O
H2O3+H2O=H4O4 or HO+H2O
H4O4+H2O=H6O5...
.......so on.
Wha?!?!?!?!?!

Kumar, you REALLY REALLY need to learn basic high school chemistry if you think something like this is possible.
 

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