What is paranormal in Homeopathy

I'm very disappointed.

Dr. MAS simply ignores basic maths and chemistry, and is incredibly reluctant to spill the beans on his description of homeopathic processes... perhaps because he knew exactly how badly they might stand up to a cursory review from forum participants with a scientific background.

He repeatedly asks why homeopathy is considered paranormal, when this has been answered repeatedly and logically.

A poor show, indeed.

That said, in the interest of fairness, it IS the case that there is still legitimate debate into the efficacy of homeopathic techniques - even in the pages of respected, peer-reviewed journals.

Eschewing my usual passive skepticism, I registered with The Lancet (www.thelancet.com). This is, of course, a well-known international journal of medical science and practice, read by Doctors everywhere. It's peer-reviewed, and reputable.

In 1998 they published a meta-analysis of 89 double-blind and/or randomised placebo-controlled clinical trials of homeopathy. The combined odds ratio for the 89 studies was in favour of homeopathy, even corrected for publication bias.

They concluded;

"The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homoeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homoeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic."

As you might imagine, the results were controversial, and have attracted vigourous debate and criticism of trial selection (some parties have vested commercial interests in the sector), sloppy practice and other potential bias.

It's not the first time that a positive analysis of this topic has been shown (or suggested) to be deeply flawed. A similar meta-analysis by another group, incidentally, showed no overall effect.

The report is available on-line as a PDF file, and can be accessed once you have registered with the site (just search for 'homeopathy'). Also available is the correspondence, both for and against the conclusions of the report.

It's still an open question whether there is an effect here at all. It's telling that positive studies into this topic frequently fail when repeated by other parties. Benveniste is just the best-known example.

It's disingenuous of Dr. MAS to imply that homeopathic principles are well-understood and scientific explainable - just outside the grasp of us poor forumites. He knows fine well that there is no academic or scientific consensus on the mechanims of homeopathic effects, let alone their actual existence.

In my opinion, it's a waste of time to devote any effort into understanding HOW it works until we've conclusively establised IF it works.
 
Dr. MAS said:
Atkin is wrong because atkin failed to notice the breaking down of molecular structure in dilution number two. This shows that he was not homeopath or he neither studied the complete process of succession process. Or process of succession or potentizing was not clear to him.
Dr. MAS, do you have any evidence that molecules break down during dilution or succussion?
 
...Randi and the team watched Benveniste's team repeat the experiment. They went to extraordinary lengths to ensure that none of the scientists involved knew which samples were the homeopathic solutions, and which ones were the controls - even taping the sample codes to the ceiling for the duration of the experiment. This time, Benveniste's results were inconclusive, and the scientific community remained unconvinced by Benveniste's memory of water theory.

Homeopathy undergoes more tests

Since the Benveniste case, more scientists have claimed to see measurable effects of homeopathic medicines. In one of the most convincing tests to date, Dr. David Reilly conducted clinical trials on patients suffering from hay fever. Using hundreds of patients, Reilly was able to show a noticeable improvement in patients taking a homeopathic remedy over those in the control group. Tests on different allergies produced similar results. Yet the scientific community called these results into question because they could not explain how the homeopathic medicines could have worked.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2002/homeopathy.shtml

What it tells you? Why Dr. David Reilly 's results were denied on practical observations & experiances basis?
 
Kumar said:
What it tells you?

That the tests were flawed. To start with the diagnosis of a lot of the cases was questionable.
 
geni said:
That the tests were flawed. To start with the diagnosis of a lot of the cases was questionable.

But practical observation & experiance was there? Whether this was denied due to "the scientific community called these results into question because they could not explain how the homeopathic medicines could have worked "?

Had he not shown remedies different from water/sugar pills?
 
Hello all

Just forget about the practical effects, experiances & observations. Have you ever tesed molecular presence of active substance in above 12C or 24X remedies? If yes, give me the referances?
 
Posted by Mojo
Dr. MAS, do you have any evidence that molecules break down during dilution or succussion?
Also pertinent is the fact that the substances (sparingly) used in homoeopathic preparations are not molecular, but simple ionic salts. Dissolve NaCl or Na2SO4 (I don't know their Latin names) in water and you get Na+(aq) or Cl-(aq) etc, where the (aq) suffix means the “aquated” sodium ion, a cation surrounded by 4-6 water molecules. The suggestion that succussion or potentization can alter the properties of these species is very hard to swallow.

Just to address an issue broached earlier, an electron micrograph certainly could not detect Na+(aq) even in a very concentrated solution (or even as a solid). Na+ could be detectable by other means (conductimetry, complexometry, or precipitation).
 
Kumar said:
But practical observation & experiance was there? Whether this was be denied due to "the scientific community called these results into question because they could not explain how the homeopathic medicines could have worked "?

Had he not shown remedies different from water/sugar pills?

The scientific community decarded the test were flawed because they were. If you dissgree answer my above critisism
 
Kumar said:
What it tells you?
The fact that you have to resort to this kind of selective quotation (it comes from a report about the Horizon programme in which the "memory of water" claims were debunked) tells me that you must be pretty desperate.
 
The Vital Force claim is in my opinion the most paranormal part of homeopathy. The vital force hypothesis was proven wrong as early as 1828 by German chemist Friedrich Wöhler. What he did was to take a "mineral-world" compound, ammonium cyanate, and by heating it, producing a "living-world" compound, Urea. By that he proved that the chemistry of the living is no different from the chemistry of the dead. And Herr Wöhler has never been proven wrong about that…
 
anor277 said:
Also pertinent is the fact that the substances (sparingly) used in homoeopathic preparations are not molecular, but simple ionic salts. Dissolve NaCl or Na2SO4 (I don't know their Latin names) in water and you get Na+(aq) or Cl-(aq) etc, where the (aq) suffix means the “aquated” sodium ion, a cation surrounded by 4-6 water molecules. The suggestion that succussion or potentization can alter the properties of these species is very hard to swallow.

Just to address an issue broached earlier, an electron micrograph certainly could not detect Na+(aq) even in a very concentrated solution (or even as a solid). Na+ could be detectable by other means (conductimetry, complexometry, or precipitation).

NaCl - Sodium Chloride (common salt)
Na2SO4 - Sodium Sulphate
 
To quote Kumar: "In one of the most convincing tests to date, Dr. David Reilly conducted clinical trials on patients suffering from hay fever. Using hundreds of patients, Reilly was able to show a noticeable improvement in patients taking a homeopathic remedy over those in the control group"

Would this be Dr David Reilly of the "Glasgow Homeopathy Hospital", by any chance? Absolutely no bias there!

Would this also be the same David Reilly who said:

"I think critics of complementary medicine who say, for example, that it's due to time and therapeutic relationship--my answer to them is you're absolutely right. And is it not wonderful if the research and experience is telling us that better time and better therapeutic relationship can lead to less drugs prescribed, less side effects, better customer satisfaction and better relief of stress?"
 
pmckean said:
To quote Kumar: "In one of the most convincing tests to date, Dr. David Reilly conducted clinical trials on patients suffering from hay fever. Using hundreds of patients, Reilly was able to show a noticeable improvement in patients taking a homeopathic remedy over those in the control group"

Would this be Dr David Reilly of the "Glasgow Homeopathy Hospital", by any chance? Absolutely no bias there!

Would this also be the same David Reilly who said:

"I think critics of complementary medicine who say, for example, that it's due to time and therapeutic relationship--my answer to them is you're absolutely right. And is it not wonderful if the research and experience is telling us that better time and better therapeutic relationship can lead to less drugs prescribed, less side effects, better customer satisfaction and better relief of stress?"

What do you want to know/say?
 
What I'm saying, plainly and clearly, is that I don't trust trials carried out by parties with a vested interest in homeopathy being real.

An analogy; if I want an objective opinion on the best loan in the marketplace to take out, I don't ask Barclay's Bank, do I?

It's unlikely that the the "Glasgow Homeopathy Hospital" could produce a report which DISPROVES homeopathy!

Just my opinion.

It would be interesting only if the results were repeatable by third parties with no vested interest.
 
pmckean said:
In 1998 they published a meta-analysis of 89 double-blind and/or randomised placebo-controlled clinical trials of homeopathy. The combined odds ratio for the 89 studies was in favour of homeopathy, even corrected for publication bias.

They concluded;

"The results of our meta-analysis are not compatible with the hypothesis that the clinical effects of homoeopathy are completely due to placebo. However, we found insufficient evidence from these studies that homoeopathy is clearly efficacious for any single clinical condition. Further research on homoeopathy is warranted provided it is rigorous and systematic."....
Ah, the perennial Linde paper, beloved of all homoeopaths and constantly cited by them. Because it's one of only about three "respectable" publications ever that have suggested there might be something there at the borders of statistical significance, and the only one which has anything really quotable about it.

What they don't tell you is that subsequently the paper was so seriously shredded by so many reviewers that the original authors themselves published a recantation, essentially agreeing that the better-conducted the study the less likely it was to show any effect. The problem is that no matter how discredited the paper now is, the original is still there to be cited, and if you don't want to cite the criticisms or the recantation then you don't have to.

Have a look at this earlier post of mine which summarises all the available meta-analyses for the benefit of some other homoeopathic believers who posted here for a while. The Reilly studies aren't referenced specifically, but they do figure within the meta-analyses. In fact, paying too much attention to Reilly was probably a lot of the reason why Linde was so misleading. Of course, if you're being strict, Reilly isn't even doing homoeopathy, his treatments are isopathic.

Bottom line, in spite of the hordes of believers who try to manufacture a case, and the few of them who actually succeed in getting something into a decent journal, the weight of the evidence is very firmly in the "nothing there" corner.

Rolfe.
 
Their naivety is almost endearing;

http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathy/forum_posts.asp?TID=2927&PN=1

"World Homeopathic Computer club has announced that if anybody proves that homeopathy is paranormal then the club will offer him/her one million Ruppees in term ofÂ_prize money. "


It would save Randi a few bucks if he only had to pay out in rupees.

I love the fact that these soi-disant experts call their coffee-house evenings the "World Computer Club".
 
Badly Shaved Monkey said:
Their naivety is almost endearing;

http://www.hpathy.com/homeopathy/forum_posts.asp?TID=2927&PN=1

"World Homeopathic Computer club has announced that if anybody proves that homeopathy is paranormal then the club will offer him/her one million Ruppees in term of�_prize money. "


It would save Randi a few bucks if he only had to pay out in rupees.

I love the fact that these soi-disant experts call their coffee-house evenings the "World Computer Club".

I might be winnable depending on how it is phrased

about £12,000
 

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