Trump 2.0 would be a catastrophe for the world...

[Hercules56]

No. He was an administrator.



"One of the best things about going to Harvard is that, for the rest of your life, you are neither intimidated nor impressed by people who went to Harvard." - Thomas Sowell

What respect do you think being a "scientist" affords one, and why do you expect me in particular to proffer such respect? Particularly on matters where the science doesn't back Fauci up? Because there was no science behind the social distancing rules or the lockdown or the ever-changing mask advice. They were ass pulls. There was no science behind the denial of the lab leak hypothesis. That was a deliberate lie and a cover up.



He lied and made **** up and then lied about his lies, and lied about people who told the truth. Why are you satisfied with that?

#1. Fauci is a scientist.

#2. If you are more than happy to tolerate and accept Trump's lies then why are Fauci's supposed lies such a problem for you??

Please, buddy, try being consistent for once.

 

[stanfr]

No. He was an administrator.



"One of the best things about going to Harvard is that, for the rest of your life, you are neither intimidated nor impressed by people who went to Harvard." - Thomas Sowell

What respect do you think being a "scientist" affords one, and why do you expect me in particular to proffer such respect? Particularly on matters where the science doesn't back Fauci up? Because there was no science behind the social distancing rules or the lockdown or the ever-changing mask advice. They were ass pulls. There was no science behind the denial of the lab leak hypothesis. That was a deliberate lie and a cover up.



He lied and made **** up and then lied about his lies, and lied about people who told the truth. Why are you satisfied with that?

Out of morbid curiosity: If, hypothetically, there were zero social distancing guidelines, no mask advice whatsoever, business as usual--do you think the Covid fatalities would have been/be higher or lower than they were/are? Just curious. Thinking about New Zealand...

and incidentally, I never recall Fauci denying the lab leak hypothesis, I was listening pretty carefully, and his responses now are pretty close to what they were, which is that he personally believed it to be a less likely scenario. The whole 'cover up' nonsense was 100% right wing media created,

 

[Ziggurat]

Out of morbid curiosity: If, hypothetically, there were zero social distancing guidelines, no mask advice whatsoever, business as usual

Why on earth do you think "business as usual" was the only alternative to what we did? Why on earth do you think individuals won't respond to risks without government mandates? And why are you only referring to guidelines? Do you think guidelines are all that government did?

And which mask advice are you even referring to? Perhaps you've forgotten, but Fauci's advice pulled a 180 degree turn.

--do you think the Covid fatalities would have been/be higher or lower than they were/are?

Covid deaths probably would have been higher (well, outside New York nursing homes anyways), but suicide rates would have been lower, drug overdose rates would have been lower, our economy would have taken less of a hit, and children wouldn't have suffered massive educational setbacks.

and incidentally, I never recall Fauci denying the lab leak hypothesis

Really? Because I do.

And it's worse than him just being wrong. He actively tried to suppress any public discussion about the virus originating from the Wuhan lab.

I was listening pretty carefully

Obviously not.

 

[stanfr]

Why on earth do you think "business as usual" was the only alternative to what we did? Why on earth do you think individuals won't respond to risks without government mandates? And why are you only referring to guidelines? Do you think guidelines are all that government did?

And which mask advice are you even referring to? Perhaps you've forgotten, but Fauci's advice pulled a 180 degree turn.

Do you know what 'hypothetical' means? Apparently not. I was just trying to get to the root of your opinion, and I figured it out from your response--you are seriously confused between the difference between policy and science.
Why do I think individuals won't respond to risks?--because they didn't! Go to any conservative district during the pandemic and they were ignoring any safety concerns--they literally were saying 'it's just the old, they are gonna die anyways.' Which is why they died in large numbers. I lost probably 20,000 at least in sales when my store was shut down during lockdown, but I aint complaining--it was a *novel* situation and Fauci responded to that novel, changing, situation.

Covid deaths probably would have been higher (well, outside New York nursing homes anyways), but suicide rates would have been lower, drug overdose rates would have been lower, our economy would have taken less of a hit, and children wouldn't have suffered massive educational setbacks.

And Fauci himself has repeatedly said there were lessons learned. But the whole suicide rates etc trope is piddly compared to the deaths from Covid.

Really? Because I do.

And it's worse than him just being wrong. He actively tried to suppress any public discussion about the virus originating from the Wuhan lab.

Obviously not.

How long you been with this forum?? Cause you seriously are taking a writer's word for something rather than looking at the *FACTS*
Fauci never 'dismissed' the theory, if you read your own article he said it was less likely, cited science that supports an animal source. He still does--nothing has changed! Your whole "he denies the lab leak" nonsensical claim is pure right wing fake news. You seem to be confusing his *opinion* (which is that it was not man-made) with a fact (that it was) He has NEVER claimed it was a *fact* that it was not man made. He was going with his interpretation of science. You seem to be going with your interpretation of propaganda.
I mean, you cite an article by James Meigs?? You do understand he has zero credentials in science or medicine, and is a puppet for an ultra right-wing organization? Next you'll be quoting Donald Trump as factual support for your claims. Do you realize how insane that is?

 

[Hercules56]

....How long you been with this forum?? Cause you seriously are taking a writer's word for something rather than looking at the *FACTS*
Fauci never 'dismissed' the theory, if you read your own article he said it was less likely, cited science that supports an animal source. He still does--nothing has changed! Your whole "he denies the lab leak" nonsensical claim is pure right wing fake news. You seem to be confusing his *opinion* (which is that it was not man-made) with a fact (that it was) He has NEVER claimed it was a *fact* that it was not man made. He was going with his interpretation of science. You seem to be going with your interpretation of propaganda.
I mean, you cite an article by James Meigs?? You do understand he has zero credentials in science or medicine, and is a puppet for an ultra right-wing organization? Next you'll be quoting Donald Trump as factual support for your claims. Do you realize how insane that is?

 

[arthwollipot]

AFAIK (not an expert) most people who know what they're talking about now think that the lab leak hypothesis, while technically still possible, is the least likely scenario.

ETA: COVID-19 and the Lab Leak

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Covid deaths probably would have been higher (well, outside New York nursing homes anyways), but suicide rates would have been lower, drug overdose rates would have been lower, our economy would have taken less of a hit, and children wouldn't have suffered massive educational setbacks.

Pathetic. But exactly what we would expect from a 'conservative'.

Trump 1.0 was already a catastrophe for the US (and to a lesser extent the World). Trump 2.0 can only be worse, and here you are expounding exactly the same crap he did. Not surprising though. Lack of empathy is a feature of the conservative brain. Many of them are even proud of it.

"Oh golly, what a conundrum - prevent 1 million unnecessary deaths, or protect my precious investments (which will be toast anyway when millions are sick and dying and the economy's in the toilet). Let me see... Eeny, meeny, miny... me!"

 

[W.D.Clinger]

Fauci was a ******* hero. For decades.

No.

Phillip W Magness (the author of that essay) is an economist, not a scientist. He works for a libertarian think tank associated with the Great Barrington Declaration, denial of climate change, and a host of other policy positions motivated by libertarian ideology rather than science.

That think tank is closely associated with the Bastiat Society. Bastiat himself, having died in 1854, is not around to tell us what he thinks of the Bastiat Society or of opinions expressed by ISF members whose signatures quote Bastiat.

Fauci is a scientist.

No. He was an administrator.

Yes, Fauci was an administrator.

Fauci was also a scientist.

Ziggurat appears to be unaware that prominent scientists can and often do become administrators.

I would have expected you to respect that.

"One of the best things about going to Harvard is that, for the rest of your life, you are neither intimidated nor impressed by people who went to Harvard." - Thomas Sowell

What respect do you think being a "scientist" affords one, and why do you expect me in particular to proffer such respect?

a_unique_person was expressing an expectation that Ziggurat would respect the fact that Fauci is a scientist. Ziggurat flat-out denied that Fauci is a scientist.

You don't have to go to Harvard to understand that flat-out denials of a prominent scientist's status as a scientist are disrespectful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci#Medical_achievements

It's a pretty long list.

eta:

In 2003, the Institute for Scientific Information stated that from 1983 to 2002, "Fauci was the 13th most-cited scientist among the 2.5 to 3.0 million authors in all disciplines throughout the world who published articles in scientific journals."

I confidently predict that Ziggurat will now point out that, at the time of Covid, Fauci was an administrator

 

[Hercules56]

Pathetic. But exactly what we would expect from a 'conservative'.

Trump 1.0 was already a catastrophe for the US (and to a lesser extent the World). Trump 2.0 can only be worse, and here you are expounding exactly the same crap he did. Not surprising though. Lack of empathy is a feature of the conservative brain. Many of them are even proud of it.

"Oh golly, what a conundrum - prevent 1 million unnecessary deaths, or protect my precious investments (which will be toast anyway when millions are sick and dying and the economy's in the toilet). Let me see... Eeny, meeny, miny... me!"

Phillip W Magness (the author of that essay) is an economist, not a scientist. He works for a libertarian think tank associated with the Great Barrington Declaration, denial of climate change, and a host of other policy positions motivated by libertarian ideology rather than science.

That think tank is closely associated with the Bastiat Society. Bastiat himself, having died in 1854, is not around to tell us what he thinks of the Bastiat Society or of opinions expressed by ISF members whose signatures quote Bastiat.


Yes, Fauci was an administrator.

Fauci was also a scientist.

Ziggurat appears to be unaware that prominent scientists can and often do become administrators.


a_unique_person was expressing an expectation that Ziggurat would respect the fact that Fauci is a scientist. Ziggurat flat-out denied that Fauci is a scientist.

You don't have to go to Harvard to understand that flat-out denials of a prominent scientist's status as a scientist are disrespectful.

:

 

[a_unique_person]

No. He was an administrator.







"One of the best things about going to Harvard is that, for the rest of your life, you are neither intimidated nor impressed by people who went to Harvard." - Thomas Sowell



What respect do you think being a "scientist" affords one, and why do you expect me in particular to proffer such respect? Particularly on matters where the science doesn't back Fauci up? Because there was no science behind the social distancing rules or the lockdown or the ever-changing mask advice. They were ass pulls. There was no science behind the denial of the lab leak hypothesis. That was a deliberate lie and a cover up.







He lied and made **** up and then lied about his lies, and lied about people who told the truth. Why are you satisfied with that?

He became an administrator. He didn't make **** up. The first pandemic in a century is a novel problem. They had to improvise, not use proven processes. I think they did as good a job as they could.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

It's more than that.

Women's rights went back 50 years and that happened after Trump left office - but it was the result of 2(?) supreme court judges he appointed.

Believe or not, presidents actions have consequence that linger on.



And international embarrassment? On a normal day that's "fine".
But when Russia is fighting Ukraine, China and Taiwan are heating up, North and South Korea are heating up, the EU is on the verge of collapse and was there something else? Oh, right, the middle east is on fire. No biggie.

Any "embarrassment" on international circuits could mean the death of millions here and with repercussions for ages.



Now I'm not saying Trump is going to kill millions or Biden will save them.
But I think it's literally impossible for the next US president to not be crucial part in whatever is coming.



But if we are talking Trump directly, his whole legal proceedings alone is enough of nightmare situation that you don't want to see what happens when he is actually in office and still have to go through with it.

The last bit is not even remotely true. If anything a second T****y regime would be good for the EU forcing it to go independent.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

The last bit is not even remotely true. If anything a second T****y regime would be good for the EU forcing it to go independent.

The EU might not be 'on the verge of collapse' but it certainly is facing an existential threat. There is a non-zero chance that Putin will push the button before (or after) he loses the war in Ukraine. There is also the very real possibility that Ukraine loses without enough help from the US.

If Trump wins he will definitely withdraw all support for Ukraine, and may also pull out of NATO. That will make it that much harder for the EU to keep Russia out.

He could even do worse stuff - but I don't want to speculate on that. Hoping we never have to face the possibility...

 

[Norman Alexander]

I keep reminding myself that it is very likely not Donny personally organising the rise of American fascism in his name. He's so out of touch with reality that he is personally incapable of running a lemonade stall profitably (mostly because he would be out golfing instead). He has demonstrated innumerable times he has no idea how government, law or science works, nor even the slightest inclination to learn.

The real culprits, if that is the right word, are the faceless geniuses behind him, who are indeed quite clever and capable of planning and operating a nazi coup by any other name. Trump is just their butt-ugly arsewipe of a sockpuppet they hide behind. They don't care a hoot if Donny goes to jail or dies. As long as all anger is directed like a lightning-rod against the useless, oblivious orange blob, the "project" keeps going regardless. So to stop this landslide into the crapper, they are the ones who need to be neutralised, not Trump.

 

[stanfr]

I keep reminding myself that it is very likely not Donny personally organising the rise of American fascism in his name. He's so out of touch with reality that he is personally incapable of running a lemonade stall profitably (mostly because he would be out golfing instead). He has demonstrated innumerable times he has no idea how government, law or science works, nor even the slightest inclination to learn.

The real culprits, if that is the right word, are the faceless geniuses behind him, who are indeed quite clever and capable of planning and operating a nazi coup by any other name. Trump is just their butt-ugly arsewipe of a sockpuppet they hide behind. They don't care a hoot if Donny goes to jail or dies. As long as all anger is directed like a lightning-rod against the useless, oblivious orange blob, the "project" keeps going regardless. So to stop this landslide into the crapper, they are the ones who need to be neutralised, not Trump.

Yes and no...for sure there is a reason Trump is known as Putin's puppet among other monikers, but he is effective as a cult leaser, that is his strength. As I sit here in my shop a bunch of goons in a truck covered with trump flags drives by...if the cult leader is neutralized the cult evaporates or goes down in flames, and the 'faceless geniuses' lose their megaphone and power. So, yeah the crapper is the underlying disease, it would continue without trump, but to kill it the obvious tumors must first be eliminated.

 

[Samson]

Yes and no...for sure there is a reason Trump is known as Putin's puppet among other monikers, but he is effective as a cult leaser, that is his strength. As I sit here in my shop a bunch of goons in a truck covered with trump flags drives by...if the cult leader is neutralized the cult evaporates or goes down in flames, and the 'faceless geniuses' lose their megaphone and power. So, yeah the crapper is the underlying disease, it would continue without trump, but to kill it the obvious tumors must first be eliminated.

You clearly miss that Obama and Biden installed the CULT of DEI where you flood institutions with highly paid operatives to find trouble and make trouble.
Nothing Trump can do after he expurgates this cancer goes close to the extreme harm done to the current crop of half adults.

 

[Gulliver Foyle]

The EU might not be 'on the verge of collapse' but it certainly is facing an existential threat. There is a non-zero chance that Putin will push the button before (or after) he loses the war in Ukraine. There is also the very real possibility that Ukraine loses without enough help from the US.

If Trump wins he will definitely withdraw all support for Ukraine, and may also pull out of NATO. That will make it that much harder for the EU to keep Russia out.

He could even do worse stuff - but I don't want to speculate on that. Hoping we never have to face the possibility...

Putain at his very strongest was a paper tiger. Two years of his three day special military organisation has exhausted that strength.

And if Ruzzia had any useable nukes we'd have seen them by now. People like Putain don't have restraint.

 

[a_unique_person]

You clearly miss that Obama and Biden installed the CULT of DEI where you flood institutions with highly paid operatives to find trouble and make trouble.

Nothing Trump can do after he expurgates this cancer goes close to the extreme harm done to the current crop of half adults.

Do you really have evidence for that?

 

[steenkh]

I also think that Trump v2 will be a disaster for Europe.

It has been pointed out that Ukraine might collapse without US support - which Trump will most definitely withhold. And NATO will be weakened to the extend that Putin will start leaning on Moldova and the Baltic countries in order to make them submit to Russian hegemony.

But Trump’s influence will also be felt on issues like women’s rights and abortion. Even today we can see the cultural waves coming to Denmark from America so that abortion opponents are feeling a new spring. Would-be dictators like Orbán in Hungary, Fico in Slovakia, or even Erdoǧan in Turkey will seek inspiration from Trump, just like he would like to take a leaf from their books.

 

[arthwollipot]

Do you really have evidence for that?

Of course he doesn't. A purer expression of rightist propaganda is rarely seen.

 

[Ziggurat]

It has been pointed out that Ukraine might collapse without US support - which Trump will most definitely withhold.

I don't think there's anything definite about that at all. I think Trump may try to squeeze some concessions out of Europe and the Democrats in exchange for that aid, but I wouldn't assume that there won't be any. And it's not all up to him anyways. It's up to Congress. Trump has never had, and will not have, complete control over Congress. Given that the American public is broadly supportive of Ukraine, there's a very good chance he will still provide support.

And NATO will be weakened to the extend that Putin will start leaning on Moldova and the Baltic countries in order to make them submit to Russian hegemony.

With what leverage? Russia's military is a spent force. Their economy is in shambles. And they can't even use their old go-to weapon against Europe, oil and gas, like they used to be able to.

And Trump's biggest complaint about NATO was always that Europe wasn't spending enough on NATO. Does that sound like he wanted NATO to be weakened? In retrospect, Europe should recognize that he was right, they did need to increase defense spending. Given they finally have increased spending, why would he back out now?

But Trump’s influence will also be felt on issues like women’s rights and abortion. Even today we can see the cultural waves coming to Denmark from America so that abortion opponents are feeling a new spring.

Europe has never been as far to the left of America on abortion as most people seem to think. And our progressives are well to the left of much of Europe on the issue. In the long run, though, this will matter less than people seem to think.