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Trump 2.0 would be a catastrophe for the world...

dudalb said:
I think this would be obvious, but several people in the forums here seem almostwelcome a Trump victory because they think that would eman the end of the USA as a major power, and that is a good thing in their minds.
I think they are incredibly ignorant of reality, and are allowing a fashionable contempt for the USA amond certain Euro political factions to overcome there sense of reality.
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Same deal as always: tackle those comments head-on in their own threads. General complaints about "people on this board" don't really mean anything.

At any rate, what will end the USA is poor land and water management, no matter who is in charge from now on. Clock is ticking a countdown that cannot be stopped, game is already over. This is, in the way of poetic justice and schadenfreude, welcome news, or would be, if millions of non-Americans were not reliant on US grain exports. All that warmongering while holding itself above international law "because our justice system is greatest" is begging for retribution, particularly after the nose-thumbing pardon of that rotting Navy seal pup, Gallagher.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
All that warmongering while holding itself above international law "because our justice system is greatest" is begging for retribution, particularly after the nose-thumbing pardon of that rotting Navy seal pup, Gallagher.
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You have a funny idea of what constitutes 'retribution'. Gallagher was prosecuted by the Navy after his own men reported him. The justice system was working, and then Trump (along with other Republicans) subverted it. So helping Trump become president again is the opposite of getting retribution, it's penalizing Americans who stand up for justice - including the Navy Seals who spoke up.

We shouldn't be talking about retribution, but making the World a better place. The correct response is to put the past behind us and do the right thing from now on. We won't get that from Trump though, so Americans need to concentrate on keeping him out of power. Begging for retribution - especially when it punishes those who don't deserve it - is letting your mind be ruled by vile emotion, and is not helping.
 
dudalb said:
Ask the Ukranians about that.
Sad to see you are talking yourslef into supporting Trump.
DO you think , given how unstalbizing it would be, US withdrawal from NATO is a good idea?
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No, I don't but I would remind you that Trump only threatened to pull out because a lot of our partners in the alliance were shirking their duty to invest in their own defense.

ETA: I don't support Trump and never have (Gary Johnson in 2016 and abstained in 2020). This year I will vote for whomever the Democrats put up. That said, I think Trump is going to win, and potentially win big.
 
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Ziggurat said:
...snip...

There is no status in being Putin's bitch, especially now. That's why I think you're completely wrong about how Trump sees Putin.
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You don't get it--he sees status *in* Putin--Putin has the status he desires, absolute power. He has stated countless times how and why he admires dictators--when he says 'jump'--he wants people to jump! That is what defines narcissistic dictator wannabes like Trump. The problem is that Trump is stupid, and Putin is not so stupid. So in his desire to be more like Putin, he will be outplayed in every move.
 
stanfr said:
You don't get it--he sees status *in* Putin--Putin has the status he desires, absolute power.
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Even supposing this is true, it doesn't follow that he would be obedient to Putin. If what you want is absolute power, why would you obey anyone? Obedience is the opposite of absolute power.
 
Ziggurat said:
Even supposing this is true, it doesn't follow that he would be obedient to Putin. If what you want is absolute power, why would you obey anyone? Obedience is the opposite of absolute power.
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If elected, Trump will abandon Ukraine. We all know this.
 
Ziggurat said:
Even supposing this is true, it doesn't follow that he would be obedient to Putin. If what you want is absolute power, why would you obey anyone? Obedience is the opposite of absolute power.
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Because their interest are actually aligned. Both are very old men who are not likely going to stay for long on this earth.

Putin's ambitions are what? To take Ukraine? Georgia? How much more could he possibly take in his time even assuming his plans go brilliantly? And he sure as heck isn't thinking he can successfully invade and conquer the USA.

So none of this actually bothers Trump. Trump wants to solidify himself in the USA. If Trump will play the role of conqueror what would he go after that Putin cares about?

Their interests don't really conflict on anything.
By the time a conflict will arise, most likely one of them will already have passed away.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
Their interests don't really conflict on anything.
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We've already seen their interests conflict, though it didn't get the attention it deserved. Trump wants low oil prices, Putin wants high oil prices. Trump wants Iran knocked down a peg, Putin wants them to be the premier power in the Middle East. And they both acted accordingly.
 
Ziggurat said:
We've already seen their interests conflict, though it didn't get the attention it deserved. Trump wants low oil prices, Putin wants high oil prices. Trump wants Iran knocked down a peg, Putin wants them to be the premier power in the Middle East. And they both acted accordingly.
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Putin needs Iran as part of his anti-west alliance alongside China and North Korea. Trump is de-facto trying to push the US into being anti-west themselves making him a perfect fit for that.

It's kind of a weird paradox where American right wingers will scream "oh, the horrors of Islam putting Sharia law on us!" but are perfectly fine with enforcing prayers, trying to suppress women or LGBT rights or whatever.

In fact, the only thing in Sharia law they probably object to is the no alcohol or bacon.


The point is, the American people's issues with Iran and vice versa might not last as long as you think with the way things are heading in the GOP.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
The point is, the American people's issues with Iran and vice versa might not last as long as you think with the way things are heading in the GOP.
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First off, your caricature of Trump and Republicans is just that, a caricature. But even supposing it was true, would that lessen the conflict? No, of course not. Why would it? Does Iran get along with every religiously conservative society? Far from it. Who is their greatest regional rival? Despite the rhetoric, it isn't actually Israel. It's Saudi Arabia. According to this post, we should expect Iran and Saudi Arabia to be best friends. But they hate each other with a passion.

The US becoming more religiously conservative will not lead to any sort of rapprochement with Iran. Only a fundamental change in Iran's leadership will, and don't expect that any time soon.
 
GrandMasterFox said:
Putin needs Iran as part of his anti-west alliance alongside China and North Korea. Trump is de-facto trying to push the US into being anti-west themselves making him a perfect fit for that.

It's kind of a weird paradox where American right wingers will scream "oh, the horrors of Islam putting Sharia law on us!" but are perfectly fine with enforcing prayers, trying to suppress women or LGBT rights or whatever.

In fact, the only thing in Sharia law they probably object to is the no alcohol or bacon.


The point is, the American people's issues with Iran and vice versa might not last as long as you think with the way things are heading in the GOP.
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You forget one thing: the Christian Religious right hates Islam with a passion.
It;s the main competition.
Both Islam and Fundy Christinaity have a my way or the highway we are the only way theology. Natually they will hate each other.
 
Ziggurat said:
First off, your caricature of Trump and Republicans is just that, a caricature. But even supposing it was true, would that lessen the conflict? No, of course not. Why would it? Does Iran get along with every religiously conservative society? Far from it. Who is their greatest regional rival? Despite the rhetoric, it isn't actually Israel. It's Saudi Arabia. According to this post, we should expect Iran and Saudi Arabia to be best friends. But they hate each other with a passion.

The US becoming more religiously conservative will not lead to any sort of rapprochement with Iran. Only a fundamental change in Iran's leadership will, and don't expect that any time soon.
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This, People forget how much Protestent and Catholic nations hated each other bakc in the day.
I am not sure the US is becoming more religious conservative, if you look at the constand drop on church attendence . Apparently the religious right thinks they can use the power of secular govement to force people back inot the churches. They will fail badly.
what is scary is that you see nothing wrong with the US government trying to have an official religion.
Being a Mickey Mouse Republican has it's dangers.
 
dudalb said:
what is scary is that you see nothing wrong with the US government trying to have an official religion.
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What makes you think that? It's not true.

For the sake of argument, I used another poster's predictions and gamed out what would happen if that prediction came to pass. That does not mean that I want that outcome, nor does it mean that I expect that outcome. The only point was to show a flaw in their reasoning.
 
Hercules56 said:
Trump 2.0 would be a disaster but we dont have to worry about that as much after today :)
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Trump is going to win in Israel (absentee balloting amongst the US-Israeli dual-national citizens living there).
 
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Ziggurat said:
I don't think he did say that. He did say:



“Look at Paris, look at London — they’re no longer recognizable.”​



But that means something very, very different.







Bwhahahahaha!



Do you think Trump is so clueless about real estate as to think a hotel in Moscow now is a money making prospect?







I'll accept that claim. But even accepting that, you're still leaping to unfounded conclusions. Trump's ego is about a lot more than money. If it were only a matter of money, he wouldn't have run for president. Being president didn't make him richer, it probably cost him money. But there's status in being president, status that money alone cannot buy. Once you pass a certain wealth threshold, making more money doesn't affect your material conditions, so the ultra-rich often look elsewhere. That's why Bezos started Blue Origin. That's why Musk bought Twitter. That's why Trump ran for President. It's not just about money. Status matters to people like Trump, and there's a lot of status in being President.



There is no status in being Putin's bitch, especially now. That's why I think you're completely wrong about how Trump sees Putin.
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There is butt kissing. Putin has to do it even with Kim, and Trump just loves it done to him by a manly dictator.
 
dudalb said:
You forget one thing: the Christian Religious right hates Islam with a passion.
It;s the main competition.
Both Islam and Fundy Christinaity have a my way or the highway we are the only way theology. Natually they will hate each other.
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Do tell me, how much is Islam a beloved thing in Russia, China or North Korea?
The answer is none at all and in many ways it is hated there more than in the US.

But the new axis of evil are perfectly fine with Iran as having a seat among them. Their goals are clear and don't cross each other while having the same mutual enemies.

It doesn't matter if the people hate the religion or the ideological clash , these are authoritarian regimes. Hitler had various non-Arians allies that he was fine as long as they helped him do his thing and would likely turn on them in some point in the future - but emphasis on the future.

The US isn't an authoritarian fascist regime yet - but it could be headed that way and once it does - what would be Iran's problem with the US anymore?

That the US intervenes as a global bully dictating its will like they say now? Of course not, Trump pulling out of Ukraine and Taiwan is the opposite of that.

That the US will be the liberal cultural impact it has on the world today? Of course not, the GOP are already trying to ban abortions, drag queens, lgbt rights and what not. Let them have their ways, and Hollywood would go back to the 50s where married couples have separate beds.


And from the other end of things - do you think Americans really give that much of a damn about what Iran is doing? They don't. They care when it's in their back yard or there is a direct threat to them (real or imagined one - see Iraq)

But if Trump joins the axis and the US and Iran just leave each other alone (officially or otherwise), neither side would care that much of the other for the time being and deal with their own affairs.
 
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