Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[DOC]

Would anyone consider these as coming from an original source.

From the article: The Founders on Public Religious Expression by David Barton.

http://www.leaderu.com/common/founderspubrelig.html

• While President, Jefferson closed his presidential documents with the phrase, “In the year of our Lord Christ; by the President; Thomas Jefferson.” [14]

Furthermore, Jefferson would especially disagree with those who believe that public prayers should be non-sectarian and omit specific references to Jesus. Jefferson believed that every individual should pray according to his own beliefs. As Jefferson explained:

[The] liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will [is] a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support. [15] (emphasis added)
​

Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:

No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]
___

14] For example, his presidential act of October 18, 1804, from an original document in our possession.
[15] Jefferson, Writings (1904), Vol. XVI, p. 291, to Captain John Thomas on November 18, 1801.

[16] Hutson (see n. 8) at p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, “Washington Parish, Washington City,” by Rev. Ethan Allen.

______End of cite

Doc: And he gave it the sanction of his example (see 16 above) by going to church services weekly in the House of
Representatives as Wiki reports in
its Jefferson bio.




​

 

[Beady]

[14] For example, his presidential act of October 18, 1804, from an original document in our possession.
[15] Jefferson, Writings (1904), Vol. XVI, p. 291, to Captain John Thomas on November 18, 1801.

[16] Hutson (see n. 8) at p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, “Washington Parish, Washington City,” by Rev. Ethan Allen.

14 & 16 seem to be from documents not readily available for inspection, while 16 is also 2nd-hand and presumably hearsay (can we say "Parson Weems"?). Not sure about 15.

ETA: Went to the link and immediately found:

David Barton is the Founder and President of [FONT=Times New Roman, Times]WallBuilders[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, Times], a national pro-family organization which distributes historical, legal, and statistical information; and helps citizens become active in their local schools and communities. (WallBuilders is a name taken from the biblical book of Nehemiah.) [/FONT]

Etc. Objectivity is in question.

 

[Cleon]

As to whether or not I have an advanced degree I have never said...

Any posts other people make should be able to stand on their own. And don't need me to validate or acknowledge them.

Kennedy made 15 assertions (listed in post 145). I've only heard 4 or 5 of those 15 contested by others. I just responded above to the (contested) assertions about the Great Seal and using the word "God" in the national motto. So your statement that I have refused to acknowledge any posts that have refuted my positions is untrue.

What difference does it make where a source comes from if its true. The Papers of Thomas Jefferson are the Papers of Thomas Jefferson no matter what the belief system of the quoter is. Any large city library should have a volume set of the "The Papers of Thomas Jefferson" in their reference section.

Wei.

 

[wahrheit]

What difference does it make where a source comes from if its true.

 

[DOC]

The following passage is from the article The Founders on Public Religious Expression by David Barton.

http://www.leaderu.com/common/founderspubrelig.html


Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:

No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]
___

[16] Hutson (see n. 8) at p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, “Washington Parish, Washington City,” by Rev. Ethan Allen.

End of Cite

From Doc:

If Thomas Jefferson really believed item 16 than it could be argued that Jefferson would have believed that the actions of the ACLU regarding religion would destroy America.

 

[Cleon]

Doc, Barton is now a confirmed liar.

Somehow, I don't think that will stop you...

 

[Ducky]

Doc, why do you seem to only provide material from sources who's accuracy is severely in question?

From Cleon's link:

"Sir, no nation has ever yet existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man, and I as chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example."
This is a sticky one, since Jefferson was supposedly overheard saying this, rather than having written it. If there is no potential written record, it makes our job quite a bit harder, but we have some clues in this case. This quote appeared in Historical Sketch of Washington Parish, Washington City, 1794-1857, by Reverend Ethan Allen (1796-1897). The original quote is as follows:

"Mr. J.P. Ingle says in his note of July 6, 1857, "Mr. Underwood and myself can both recollect that Mr. McCormick held service in a Tobacco House as early in 1803 when Mr. Jefferson attended there. The old Market which stood on the NW corner of the Virginia & New Jersey Avenues was often pointed out as the place also where Mr. McCormick officiated. Was the tobacco house near this? Here it was that Mr. Jefferson was coming one Sunday morning across the fields leading to it with his large red Prayer Book under his arm when a friend riding him after their mutual good morning said which way are you walking Mr. Jefferson - to which he replied to Church Sir - you going to church Mr. Jefferson? You do not believe a word in it - Sir said Mr. Jefferson no nation has yet existed or been governed without religion - nor can be - the Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man & I as the chief magistrate of this nation am bound to give it the sanction of my example. Good morning Sir."

Reverend Allen would have been a child at the time this statement was supposedly uttered, and the anecdote actually came to the Reverend through the filter of several other people. We remain skeptical of its authenticity.

 

[trvlr2]

Beady- he also holds impressive academic credentials:

"David holds a Bachelor of Arts degree from Oral Roberts University and an Honorary Doctorate of Letters from Pensacola Christian College. He has been a recipient of national and international awards including Who’s Who in Education and DAR’s highest award, the George Washington Honor Medal. His work in media and the educational medium have merited several Angel Awards, Telly Awards, and the Dove Foundation Seal of Approval."

(from Wallbuilders site)

Boy, I shur wush I cud get me one'a'them Angle Awards. Mebbe then,I wud be rendered an expert!

 

[Beady]

Beady- he also holds impressive academic credentials:

Considering #226, his academic credentials fail to impress. A learned liar is a liar.

 

[fuelair]

I would prefer you "don't change my quotes" no matter what you say after it. That would seem to me to be some kind of a rule violation and if there isn't a rule, there should be.

Widdle feewings hurt? Then quit quoting fellatious "scholars" and telling us to waste our time dredging through the drek that makes up your troll-ridden, so-called evidence.




The spellings are all 3 intentional.

 

[blutoski]

The following passage is from the article The Founders on Public Religious Expression by David Barton.

http://www.leaderu.com/common/founderspubrelig.html


Critics, therefore, would be particularly troubled by President Jefferson’s words that:

No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example. [16]
___

[16] Hutson (see n. 8) at p. 96, quoting from a handwritten history in possession of the Library of Congress, “Washington Parish, Washington City,” by Rev. Ethan Allen.

End of Cite

From Doc:

If Thomas Jefferson really believed item 16 than it could be argued that Jefferson would have believed that the actions of the ACLU regarding religion would destroy America.

I went to locate this one. This is from Rev. Ethan Allen's personal notes. He provides no date or location for the Jefferson quote, and also points out that he didn't personally hear Jefferson say it. He prefaces the quote with "It is said that Jefferson made the following statement:" which is to say, it was a rumour that Jefferson might have said this or something like it, somewhere, sometime, maybe.

This one-off rumour-of-a-rumour is shaky evidence at best, especially in light of the literally hundreds of confirmed statements Jefferson makes to the contrary.

I recommend reading A Necessary Evil, by Garry Wills. It's a sort of Snopes.com for Constitution/Bill Of Rights urban myths. Although it focuses more on the subculture of the antifederalist militia movement than the pro-theocracy crowd.

 

[blutoski]

I believe Jefferson didn't want to force anything on anybody and neither do I.

Actually, while Jefferson is popular for having founded the Republican party, he was heavily criticized as a borderline despot during his tenure as president. Especially in a brief period around 1798-1799 where he held very strong federalist views. The states accused him of forcing federal ideological limits on their congressional powers.

To a large extent, this is due to the recognized abuses that some states were placing on their minority religions, blacks, and first nations. Jefferson felt that the militias should be disbanded as quickly as possible, as they seemed to have no role other than locally-approved violence against indians and lynchings of free blacks. He and Madison had worked the Bill of Rights to include a catch-all article for giving the federal Congress via the Continental Army final authority in all domestic matters, which is pretty much the definition of 'forcing things on somebody'.

It is important to recognize that this Jefferson/Madison version of a Fourteenth Amendment would have forced a very different interpretation of the Bill of Rights' First Amendment. It would have included the stipulation that state laws could be vetoed by the federal congress if a state denied a citizen any of the following:

equal rights of religion, or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases

Jefferson's version was not ratified, and we had to wait until the 20th century before due process was extended to include action against states.

 

[blutoski]

I'm referring to other things churches and private citizens can't do. If I was a betting man I would bet that the ACLU has 10 times more anti-religion cases than pro-religion cases.

No doubt about it. More like 100x as many.

Is that something religious people should be proud of?

Is it 'good' to observe that religious public servants are more likely to be abusing their positions of trust - blatantly violating the constitutional rights of citizens - than atheists seem to be?

Remember: those are your rights they're defending. Your freedom to worship (or to not worship) without government interference.

 

[Questioninggeller]

Doc, Barton is now a confirmed liar.

Somehow, I don't think that will stop you...

Well, he's ignored the pile of evidence so far.

 

[DOC]

Doc, Barton is now a confirmed liar.

Somehow, I don't think that will stop you...

I guess you have the right to your opinion but the chief of the Library of Congress manuscript division, James Hutson, would disagree with you. The following excerpt says Hutson strongly implies the story and quote in question were genuine.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/20/171052/068

More Historical Revisionism from The Christmas Wars: Religion in the American Public Square. By Chris Rodda

In 1998, the story appeared in James T. Hutson's Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, which has since become the source most often cited for the quote, using Hutson's position at the Library of Congress to lend credibility to the story. Hutson, however, while strongly implying that the story and quote were genuine, fell just short of stating this as fact, using phases such as "...this colloquy may not be a literal transcription..." But, Hutson also asserts that the verification of another of Rev. Allen's claims, that Jefferson donated money to Rev. McCormick's church,"lends plausibility" to the anecdote of Jefferson's encounter on his way to church.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I guess you have the right to your opinion but the chief of the Library of Congress manuscript division, James Hutson, would disagree with you. The following excerpt says Hutson strongly implies the story and quote in question were genuine.

So basically Hutson cannot show it's genuine, and actual Jefferson scholars at Monticello deny that it's genuine, and we're supposed to conclude it probably is genuine? Wow...

And Hutson's Religion and the Founders exhibit was what I was referring to a few pages back. I mixed up his book/exhibit at the LoC with Barton's book. (all their titles tend to run together for me)

 

[DOC]

So basically Hutson cannot show it's genuine, and actual Jefferson scholars at Monticello deny that it's genuine, and we're supposed to conclude it probably is genuine? Wow...

And Hutson's Religion and the Founders exhibit was what I was referring to a few pages back. I mixed up his book/exhibit at the LoC with Barton's book. (all their titles tend to run together for me)

They never deny it's genuine. They just state they remain skeptical of its authenticity, and would not use it as a quote. They -- whatever their individual names are -- have the right to their opinion, just like Barton and the chief of the manuscript division at the Library of Congress have the right to their opinions.

 

[Cleon]

I guess you have the right to your opinion but the chief of the Library of Congress manuscript division, James Hutson, would disagree with you. The following excerpt says Hutson strongly implies the story and quote in question were genuine.

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/2/20/171052/068

More Historical Revisionism from The Christmas Wars: Religion in the American Public Square. By Chris Rodda

In 1998, the story appeared in James T. Hutson's Religion and the Founding of the American Republic, which has since become the source most often cited for the quote, using Hutson's position at the Library of Congress to lend credibility to the story. Hutson, however, while strongly implying that the story and quote were genuine, fell just short of stating this as fact, using phases such as "...this colloquy may not be a literal transcription..." But, Hutson also asserts that the verification of another of Rev. Allen's claims, that Jefferson donated money to Rev. McCormick's church,"lends plausibility" to the anecdote of Jefferson's encounter on his way to church.

Wei.

 

[Ducky]

They never deny it's genuine. They just state they remain skeptical of its authenticity, and would not use it as a quote. They -- whatever their individual names are -- have the right to their opinion, just like Barton and the chief of the manuscript division at the Library of Congress have the right to their opinions.

Ok just in case you didn't learn this in college, DOC:

When someone says they are skeptical of something's authenticity, they are saying they deny it is genuine.

ETA:

I will say you very much have the right to whatever opinion you wish to have. This doesn't, however, mean your (or their) opinion is factually correct.

 

[DOC]

Wei.

Ok just in case you didn't learn this in college, DOC:

When someone says they are skeptical of something's authenticity, they are saying they deny it is genuine.

ETA:

I will say you very much have the right to whatever opinion you wish to have. This doesn't, however, mean your (or their) opinion is factually correct.

No, I never learned the word "skeptical" and "deny" are synonyms in college. What class did you learn that in?