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Well I don't have much more time today, but here's an excerpt from an article I ran across while looking under Jefferson and Rotunda entitled God and Government by Cliff Kincaid:

"Harvard University was founded in 1636 by the Rev. John Harvard, a Puritan, and its motto was "Truth For Christ and his Church." The media lead us to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed in a wall of separation of church and state. But as president, he became chairman of the school board for the District of Columbia and wrote its first plan of education. The two principal textbooks were the Bible and Watts hymnal, and clergymen were the teachers. Jefferson founded the University of Virginia, whose official motto, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free," came from Jesus. Jefferson had this scripture inscribed on the walls inside the university rotunda and he set aside part of the rotunda for church services."



http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A62_0_2_0_C/
 
Well I don't have much more time today, but here's an excerpt from an article I ran across while looking under Jefferson and Rotunda entitled God and Government by Cliff Kincaid:

"Harvard University was founded in 1636 by the Rev. John Harvard, a Puritan, and its motto was "Truth For Christ and his Church." The media lead us to believe that Thomas Jefferson believed in a wall of separation of church and state. But as president, he became chairman of the school board for the District of Columbia and wrote its first plan of education. The two principal textbooks were the Bible and Watts hymnal, and clergymen were the teachers. Jefferson founded the University of Virginia, whose official motto, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free," came from Jesus. Jefferson had this scripture inscribed on the walls inside the university rotunda and he set aside part of the rotunda for church services."



http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/A62_0_2_0_C/

It is intellectually dishonest to assume Jefferson approved and requested the bible be used as a textbook. Here is a quote refuting that:

Apparently, Barton wants us to conclude that, since Jefferson was president of the board for a school system that used the Bible for reading instruction, he must have approved of using the Bible in this manner. In fact, some readers of this web site have claimed in their e-mail correspondence with us that Jefferson requested the Bible to be used for reading instruction. But nothing in Barton's source supports either of these claims. In fact, Barton's source suggests that someone other than Jefferson was responsible for introducing the Bible into the schools, and that this policy was adopted after Jefferson had left Washington for retirement in Virginia. Here are the facts:

On September 19, 1805, toward the end of Jefferson's first term as President of the United States, the board of trustees of the Washington D. C. public schools adopted its first plan for public education for the city. Given its resemblance to a similar plan proposed several years earlier by Jefferson for the state of Virginia, Wilson (Barton's source) suggests that it is likely that "he [Jefferson] himself was the chief author of the...plan." The plan called for the establishment of two public schools in which:

...poor children shall be taught reading, writing, grammar, arithmetic, and such branches of the mathematics as may qualify them for the professions they are intended to follow, and they shall receive such other instruction as is given to pay pupils, as the board may from time to time direct, and pay pupils shall, besides be instructed in geography and in the Latin language.

As you can see, there is nothing in this plan that mentions religious education or the use of the Bible in reading instruction. Nor, we might add, was the Bible mentioned in any of Jefferson's plans for public education in the state of Virginia, either before or after his presidency (check out an extract from Leonard Levy's book Jefferson and Civil Liberties: The Darker Side for documentation on this point). There is nothing, absolutely nothing, in Barton's source that connects Jefferson to the practice of Bible reading. So how did the Bible come to be used in the Washington public schools? Remarkably, Barton's own source provides an answer to that question.

<snip>

In 1812 the board of trustees established a school that used a curriculum developed by the British educator Joseph Landcaster, who's system of education was becoming increasingly popular in the United States. Wilson describes Landcaster as an "enthusiastic but somewhat visionary schoolmaster, who adopted an inexpensive method of educating, especially the masses of the poor. The curriculum of his schools included reading, writing, arithmetic, and the Bible." In an 1813 report to the board of trustees, Henry Ould, the principle of the Landcasterian school, related the progress his students had made in reading and spelling:

55 have learned to read in the Old and New Testaments, and are all able to spell words of three, four, and five syllables; 26 are now learning to read Dr. Watts' Hymns and spell words of two syllables; 10 are learning words of four and five letters. Of 509 out of the whole number admitted that did not know a single letter, 20 can now read the Bible and spell words of three, four, and five syllables, 29 read Dr. Watts' Hymns and spell words of two syllables, and 10 words of four and five letters.
In other words, the first mention of the use of the Bible and a Christian hymnal in the Washington public schools is in connection with a curriculum adopted in 1812, three years after Jefferson has left Washington and the school board for retirement in Virginia. Contrary to Barton's implied claim, Jefferson was not president of the school board when the Bible was being used for instruction. Barton simply omits information he doesn't want his readers to know, and so allows them to draw an conclusion that his own source refutes. Barton, we conclude, is either sloppy or dishonest in his use of evidence. Either alternative should cause the reader to question the soundness of Barton's scholarship.

So what about Barton's quote from Herbert Lockyear's The Last Words of Saints and Sinners? We tracked down the book and discovered that it had no footnotes that direct the reader back to either Jefferson's own writings, or to secondary accounts of Jefferson's life; the quote, in other words, is untraceable. Moreover, we've never seen this quote referenced in any scholarly work on Jefferson's attitude toward religion, or in any account of Jefferson's death (the context of Lockyear's book). If Jefferson uttered these words, it has apparently escaped the notice of most historians.

Source.

Bolding mine. Do you have any source that is factually accurate at all, or is it the same half-truths and outright falsehoods in new packages?
 
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The complete works of Thomas Jefferson are like the Bible: If you rummage around in them enough, you can find a quote that supports almost anything. Same with the complete works of Lenin, I'm told.

The other parallel to the Bible is that Jefferson often wrote under a nom de plume shared by other authors. eg: Publius.

Another problem that complicates interpreting Jefferson is that - like Madison - he appears to have changed his mind on many issues, some of which were very important.

For example, when he became governor of Virgina, he was very strongly opposed to the principle of a strong executive. After trying for months to allocate funds from the state assembly to fortify the river and failing (Benedict Arnold's raid took place months after Washington advised Virginia of its vulnerability to river assault), it dawned on him that an executive should have powers to manage urgent threats.

Later, though, under Adams, he felt that the executive had too much power (Alien and Sedition Act) and secretly wrote state-level bills, arguing to dissolve the union.

Later, as president himself, he felt that the executive should have more power (The British Embargo after the attack on the Chesapeake, which included making slandering the president illegal, and ultimately led to war with Britain).

So: if you read Jefferson, and you want to know how he felt about executive power, just find out what year he agreed with you and quote selectively.
 
So Doc, are you going to acknowledge that your most recent quote is completely factually incorrect?
 
The other parallel to the Bible is that Jefferson often wrote under a nom de plume shared by other authors. eg: Publius.

Is this correct? To my knowledge, the only work attributed to "Publius" is the Federalist Papers, attributed to Jay, Hamilton, and Madison -- but not Jefferson.

I invite further information; what else did "Publius" publish?
 
So Doc, are you going to acknowledge that your most recent quote is completely factually incorrect?


My most recent quote is in Post #261. I believe it has around 11 or 12 facts. For example, Harvard University was founded in 1636 is a fact. Its founder is the Rev. John Harvard is a fact, and so on. Your above statement that my most recent quote is completely factually incorrect is completely incorrect.
 
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Ok doc, let's stay on topic then.

Are you going to acknowledge that this portion of your quote is factually incorrect:

But as president, he became chairman of the school board for the District of Columbia and wrote its first plan of education. The two principal textbooks were the Bible and Watts hymnal, and clergymen were the teachers.

Are you even going to acknowledge the source material I cited to dispute that? Or any of the numerous posts that did the same all over this thread?
 
A quick thanks to the contributors in this thread.

I originally had a vague idea of what Jefferson believed in, but didn't know any great detail. But thanks to this thread I now know that there is no evidence he was a Christian in the sense it was used in his day or indeed a Christian as recognised by any major denomination today.

Fascinating stuff.
 
It is intellectually dishonest to assume Jefferson approved and requested the bible be used as a textbook. Here is a quote refuting that:



Source.

Bolding mine. Do you have any source that is factually accurate at all, or is it the same half-truths and outright falsehoods in new packages?


Who assumed Jefferson requested the bible to be used as a textbook. It wasn't me or Cliff Kincaid who I quoted. And I never quoted Barton regarding the school district, I quoted Kincaid.

My answer to your second question is yes -- the letter Jefferson wrote to Dr Benjamin Rush (a signer of the Declaration) where Jefferson plainly says he is a Christian, Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address, and the "The Papers of Thomas Jefferson" where ceo_esq (post #217) said it looked like a legitimate source.
 
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Who assumed Jefferson requested the bible to be used as a textbook. It wasn't me or Cliff Kincaid who I quoted. And I never quoted Barton regarding the school district, I quoted Kincaid.

Whose source was Barton, as is anyone that puts Jefferson and the bibles used by that school district together. THe very nature of that quote implies Jefferson had something to do with using the bible and hymn books, which I have clearly shown is false.

My answer to your second question is yes -- the letter Jefferson wrote to Dr Benjamin Rush (a signer of the Declaration) where Jefferson plainly says he is a Christian, Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address, and the "Works of Jefferson" where ceo_esq said it looked like a legitimate source.


Lincoln's address has nothing to do with Jefferson. As for the letter Jefferson wrote to Rush, I have on many occasions shown his use of the word "Christian" is not what you intend it to be.
 
Whose source was Barton, as is anyone that puts Jefferson and the bibles used by that school district together. THe very nature of that quote implies Jefferson had something to do with using the bible and hymn books, which I have clearly shown is false.




Lincoln's address has nothing to do with Jefferson. As for the letter Jefferson wrote to Rush, I have on many occasions shown his use of the word "Christian" is not what you intend it to be.


Lincoln's second inaugural address shows he didn't believe in keeping God out of the public arena (separation of church and state) and the term separation of church and state (see post 61) has a lot to do with Jefferson. I have a feeling the ACLU would have been highly critical of Lincoln's speech.
 
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Lincoln's second inaugural address shows he didn't believe in keeping God out of the public arena (separation of church and state) and the term separation of church and state (see post 61) has a lot to do with Jefferson. I have a feeling the ACLU would have been highly critical of Lincoln's speech.
1. As fowlsound pointed out, Lincoln's 2nd Inaugural has nothing to do with Jefferson, which is the point of this thread.

2. Lincoln mentions God and what he surmises to be a demonstration of God's will and a hope of what God's will is in regarding to the war. As such, his implied belief is a bit different from that of Deists, but it is not demonstrably Christian. Most importantly, nothing in that address constitutes advocation that the government be entwined with religion. Lincoln merely expressed personal hopes which he knew would mirror the personal hopes of many.

So you are wrong again. The ACLU would have taken no issue with that address.
 
Lincoln's second inaugural address shows he didn't believe in keeping God out of the public arena (separation of church and state) and the term separation of church and state (see post 61) has a lot to do with Jefferson. I have a feeling the ACLU would have been highly critical of Lincoln's speech.

So you don't in fact acknowledge that I have presented evidence to the contrary of your positions on Jefferson in this thread, along with many others?
 
Is this correct? To my knowledge, the only work attributed to "Publius" is the Federalist Papers, attributed to Jay, Hamilton, and Madison -- but not Jefferson.

Jefferson and Madison collaborated on many of the Publius pieces. Ultimately, they were all submitted by Madison, though.

However, the most important secret writings of Jefferson were his secessionist proposals announced by two states while he was Vice President, and this is also a good example of how difficult it is to determine what Jefferson 'thought': while he was ghostwriting these proposals, he was officially criticizing them as Vice President. A scenario that is vulnerable to misleading and selective quote mining.
 
Jefferson and Madison collaborated on many of the Publius pieces.

Er, did they? Not one of the Federalist specialists I've consulted over the years -- analysis of the Federalisti papers is something of a cottage industries in some dark corners of academia -- has mentioned this little factoid. If this is actually true, then in one sentence, you've cut the rug out from under about twenty promising academic careers.

Do you mind if I ask for your sources?
 
Er, did they? Not one of the Federalist specialists I've consulted over the years -- analysis of the Federalisti papers is something of a cottage industries in some dark corners of academia -- has mentioned this little factoid. If this is actually true, then in one sentence, you've cut the rug out from under about twenty promising academic careers.

Do you mind if I ask for your sources?

Wills, for one. Maybe I exaggerate the meaning of 'collaborate'. Madison and all the authors would circulate their drafts and discuss arguments among fellow Federalists before submitting their final versions. In the case of Madison, he appears to have worked with Jefferson on several of 'his' Federalist Papers. A process that was repeated during the Bill of Rights, contrary to DOC's claim that Jefferson was 'uninvolved' due to being overseas.

Garry Wills discusses this casually in a couple of his books, so I took it for granted as true.

This does still, however, underscore my point: it can be difficult to extract one writer's view from collaborative pieces, especially since the editing process may involve more than one person, and secondly, these writings are really snapshots of a person's view at that time, rather than a summary of some sort of career position.
 
It seems DOC would rather run away than acknowledge evidence contrary to his posts.
 
2 days Later

Here's an interview with David Barton "Article VI Blog" that says 2 days after Jefferson wrote the famous letter to the Danbury Baptists he was attending church services in the Capitol Building.

http://www.article6blog.com/2006/09/18/article-vi-interview-david-barton-of-wallbuilders/


"Significantly (as another indication of Jefferson’s intent in that letter), he wrote his separation metaphor in his letter on Friday, January 1, 1802; two days later, on Sunday, January 3, 1802, Jefferson attended church in the U. S. Capitol to hear his friend, the Rev. John Leland, preach a sermon in the Hall of the House of Representatives. The practice of having church at the Capitol was a practice that had been approved (see the Records of Congress for December 4, 1800) when Jefferson was the President of the Senate – the Vice President of the United States. Jefferson not only attended church services in the Capitol as Vice President, but he attended for eight years as President. In fact, he ordered the Marine Corps band to play the worship services at the Capitol for Sunday Divine services. Therefore, two days after he wrote the separation letter, he was going to church in the federal Capitol; that fact was no contradiction since the separation letter was to protect the free exercise of religion (such as church in the Capitol) rather than stop it."
 
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