Thomas Jefferson's admiration and financial support of Christianity

[hgc]

If you wish to be taken seriously, I think you should proofread your posts, cite your sources, and acknowledge when you have been presented with evidence to the contrary of your assertions.

I suggest you take that 3rd part seriously, DOC. If you continue to ignore contrary claims or evidence, then you'll be rightly disregarded as worthy of serious conversation. You may pretend that these things aren't pointed out to you, but the people saying them won't.

 

[Steven Howard]

This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it. - John Adams

To be fair, though, that's out of context. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, Adams wrote:

Twenty times, in the course of my late reading, have I been on the point of breaking out, 'this would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!!' But in this exclamation, I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion, this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in public company-I mean hell.

Of course, Adams himself wasn't much of a believer, as can be seen from his other writings. He found religion to be useful for society in general, which is understandable given his social environment.

 

[Malachi151]

I think Adams was a Hobbsean atheist, who viewed religion as a tool, but didn't believe in it himself. He may not have been a strong atheist, but he clearly gave religion little personal concern and viewed "reason and the senses" as his personal guide.

 

[Ducky]

Unfortunately you've wasted a lot of time on your post. I've read many books.

Dr. Suess doesn't apply to this discussion.

 

[DOC]

Oh Krishna on a cruch. You're not suggesting we look up the Library of Congress a** kiss to the Religous Right that basically was derived from Barton's nonsense do you? I have a link I can provide later today criticizing that exhibit.

We can get into that later when I have more time, but for now I want to ask you a simple question about the Constitution. Madison was Jefferson's protege. While a lot of what would become America was influenced by Hamilton, why didn't Jefferson's supposed vocal and public support for Christianity make it's way into the Constitution via his influence with Madison?

Do you have an answer as to why the Constitution begins with "We The People" instead of with an homage to God or Jesus?

I believe Jefferson didn't want to force anything on anybody and neither do I.

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I believe Jefferson didn't want to force anything on anybody and neither do I.

Then why did you cite a LoC exhibit that basically forced historical revisionism on the public to curry favor with accomodationists? Is it o.k. then if you only cite it rather than stage it yourself?

 

[DOC]

You are not able to copy and paste a web address? Google can return literally millions of results. This isn't going to cut it.

Also, for someone that has gone to college and has an advanced degree your grasp of the written word is atrocious. "Their" is not interchangeable with "there" nor is "your" and "you're." If you wish to be taken seriously, I think you should proofread your posts, cite your sources, and acknowledge when you have been presented with evidence to the contrary of your assertions.

I'd much rather have a great idea than great grammar -- you really should spend more time on the message than the messenger. Just a note, I'm at the age where derogatory comments don't phase me much, especially over the internet. Maybe in my early 20's they might have had some effect, but at my age your just wasting your time, and everyone elses.

My software doesn't have the paste function. You know its the cheap kind that came with the computer. And if I spend 100 dollars for good software than I'll have to buy less books.

Once again the site with all the good footnotes is

"The Founders on Public Religious Expression"
by David Barton

 

[Ducky]

I'd much rather have a great idea than great grammar -- you really should spend more time on the message than the messenger. Just a note, I'm at the age where derogatory comments don't phase me much, especially over the internet. Maybe in my early 20's they might have had some effect, but at my age your just wasting your time, and everyone elses.

My software doesn't have the paste function. You know its the cheap kind that came with the computer. And if I spend 100 dollars for good software than I'll have to buy less books.

Once again the site with all the good footnotes is

"The Founders on Public Religious Expression"
by David Barton

Firefox is free. You can cut and paste weblinks from that. Go get it. In fact, there are many many many free to download web browsers.

ETA: I'm an IT professional and I know of NO web browsing software you can't cut and paste a web address from.

Your "great idea" seems to be quoting "Dr" Kennedy, who has been shown to be so in error with his ramblings it's hardly possible to imagine he ever read one book on Jefferson.

Sorry chief, you're proving yourself a troll.

 

[DOC]

Then why did you cite a LoC exhibit that basically forced historical revisionism on the public to curry favor with accomodationists? Is it o.k. then if you only cite it rather than stage it yourself?

I never cited any Library of Congress "exhibit" that I know of. You might have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[DOC]

Firefox is free. You can cut and paste weblinks from that. Go get it. In fact, there are many many many free to download web browsers.

ETA: I'm an IT professional and I know of NO web browsing software you can't cut and paste a web address from.

Your "great idea" seems to be quoting "Dr" Kennedy, who has been shown to be so in error with his ramblings it's hardly possible to imagine he ever read one book on Jefferson.

Sorry chief, you're proving yourself a troll.

Sorry my friend, the new computer I bought about 2 1/2 years ago came with free software and you know what you get when something is free. The Edit tool has cut and paste but its blacked out. All the url's I've listed I had to hand type. Do you think I like doing that. Why don't you post the Url for "The Founders on Public Religious Expression" by David Barton and see if it works. I tried to list it and it didn't work.

 

[Ducky]

Sorry my friend, the new computer I bought about 2 1/2 years ago came with free software and you know what you get when something is free. The Edit tool has cut and paste but its blacked out. All the url's I've listed I had to hand type. Do you think I like doing that. Why don't you post the Url for "The Founders on Public Religious Expression" by David Barton and see if it works. I tried to list it and it didn't work.

I'm not even going to list the reasons why an IT professional sees through this statement for the bs that it is. The computer was new 2 years ago? So was the laptop my wife uses, and 2 of my desktop towers. I have no problems on any of those.

It is obvious you are not willing to acknowledge evidence presented to the contrary of your (or should I say, Kennedy's) views, and now you are unwilling to properly cite your sources. Your excuse about your computer is simply not believable.

 

[Jekyll]

Sorry my friend, the new computer I bought about 2 1/2 years ago came with free software and you know what you get when something is free. The Edit tool has cut and paste but its blacked out. All the url's I've listed I had to hand type. Do you think I like doing that. Why don't you post the Url for "The Founders on Public Religious Expression" by David Barton and see if it works. I tried to list it and it didn't work.

Look, right click on the link you're trying to send and then chose copy link or copy shortcut.
If you want to copy an address to the website you're currently reading select everything in the address bar (the bit that says http://) right click and then chose copy.

You can then paste this into message on the forum.

 

[Ladewig]

If there are discrepencies, then do your own research.

I would accept these words from you much more easily if there were any evidence that you applied them to yourself. Are you prepared to admit that Kennedy was makes a very lousy source for people doing research?

 

[Cleon]

Fowl--I wouldn't give DOC too much grief over this. Computer illiteracy is not a crime, and as bizarre claims from illiterates go, a web browser being unable to cut and paste is not that strange. I refer you to the Chronicles of George.

DOC *should* have his feet held to the fire for all the BS he's spouted in this thread about Jefferson and his unwillingness to face up to Kennedy's lies or his own lack of knowledge about American history--but I'll give him a pass in the "computer skills" department*.




* After all, Burger King doesn't really give a whole lot of on-the-job computer training.

 

[DOC]

OK, it looks like I'm getting the hang of cut and paste. It would have been nice if my computer maker included directions. I guess they assume everybody is an expert. I never really had much use for cut and paste until recently.

Here's an article about how the whole seperation of church and state concept got started.

http://www.creationists.org/churchandstate.html

 

[Ducky]

Well that shatters my hope that Doc would provide a reputable source to anything. We've proven this site wrong in this very thread.

Research by David Barton, founder of Wallbuilders, Inc. exposes the alleged separation of church and state for the myth that it really is. The words separation of church and state don't appear in any official government documents authored by the founding fathers. This concept and these particular words were invented by an ACLU attorney named Leo Pfeffer in 1947 in the Supreme Court case of Everson versus Board of Education of Ewing Township. That liberal supreme court imposed it on the nation by a 5 to 4 vote. The ACLU and other anti-Christian organizations and individuals have used it to harass Christians with ever since. It is also used by evolutionists to try to keep a theistic explanation of origins out of the public schools. Many young people today are not aware of the fact that this concept is an ACLU invention, and that it is the extreme opposite of what our founding fathers actually intended. In other words, there is virtually no constitutional support whatsoever for it. Let's examine two of the most common myths about the founding fathers that most public school students are being taught today because of the history revisionists.

Do you have any PRIMARY sources to support your contentions, or are you simply going to regurgitate factual inaccuracies from creationist websites?

 

[Skeptic Guy]

OK, it looks like I'm getting the hang of cut and paste. It would have been nice if my computer maker included directions. I guess they assume everybody is an expert. I never really had much use for cut and paste until recently.

Here's an article about how the whole seperation of church and state concept got started.

http://www.creationists.org/churchandstate.html

Wow, that isn't even wrong...

 

[ceo_esq]

Wow, that isn't even wrong...

That site mixes up some truth and some untruth.

Also, it refers to Daniel Webster as a Founder, which for some reason bothered me more than some of the other, more significant mistakes.

 

[Dr Adequate]

To be fair, though, that's out of context. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, Adams wrote: ...

Thank you.

 

[DOC]

Well it looks like both Jefferson and Madison were involved in a law punishing Sabbath breakers. And they were also involved in days of fasting.


We have seen how Jefferson's and Madison's efforts to disestablish the Anglican Church in Virginia have been egregiously distorted to support strict separation between faith and politics. Usually omitted from the legislative histories penned by radical secularists is Madison's "Bill for Punishing Disturbers of Religious Worship and Sabbath Breakers" - especially interesting because it was presented the same day (October 31, 1785) as Madison's and Jefferson's "Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom." The law providing for the punishment of Sabbath breakers included the following language: "If any person on Sunday shall himself be found laboring at his own or any other trade or calling, or shall employ the apprentices, servants or slaves in labor, or other business, except it be in the ordinary household offices of daily necessity, or other work of necessity or charity, he shall forfeit the sum of ten shillings for every such offense, deeming every apprentice, servant, or slave so employed, and every day he shall be so employed as constituting a distinct offense." Jefferson wrote many of the bills introduced by Madison, and probably drafted this one as well.
Even those alarmed today by the general moral laxity and deterioration of religious life of the nation would probably consider a law punishing Sabbath breakers as symptomatic of fundamentalist zealotry, and placing at peril the civil liberties of all Americans. Madison's proposal, which passed in 1789, went well beyond the usual request by Christians today that they be permitted equal time and equal access to public facilities. If Jefferson did not actually write the Madison bill, which he probably did, there is no evidence that he objected to it, or that he found it in any way contradictory to his view of religious freedom.
Also on the same day that Jefferson and Madison introduced their bill for religious freedom in Virginia, Madison introduced another bill, again probably written by Jefferson, "For Appointing Days of Public Fasting and Thanksgiving," which called for "forfeiting fifty pounds for every failure, not having a reasonable excuse," if such a day was not observed by the local churches. Thus it seems clear that Jefferson's and Madison's views on religious freedom would not involve the Supreme Court mandating that the Ten Commandments be torn off the bulletin boards of public schools; nor require that there be any restrictions on prayer whatsoever. These founding fathers would consider the firing of a teacher for holding a voluntary Bible study for her students after hours in the privacy of her own home - as recently occurred near my home in Fairfax County, Virginia-to be the height of moral confusion.

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/ff/chap22.html

In the future, please remember to present credit for excerpts such as this one as well as the link you provided. In this case, it's from "Faith & Freedom by Benjamin Hart".

Thanks

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: jmercer