Cont: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine part 9

[a_unique_person]

Prestige is going full True Scotsman

He seems to be admitting he was wrong on this point. Most conservatives seem to be doubling down on Trump.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

"on this point " is not really worth anything if it doesn't make one question everything else, too.

 

[dudalb]

Trump came in wanting to make America a respected power agains, he is making it despised throughout the world.
He is right about one thing, though" Europe is going t have to spend a Lot more on it's own defesne if it want to remain free. It cannot depend onthe United States Anymore.
TRump is destroying the US as a major power, and China is just waiting to move ito the void,

 

[The Great Zaganza]

That's not how any of this works: you can't "buy" a functioning military, no matter how much you spend.
You need to order, get built and train on the equipment and vehicles.
You have to recruit and train a LOT of people.
You have to expose them to actual combat.
Thia takes many, many years.
Add to that that military service is something most Europeans don't want to do, and you are looking at a decade before the continent is in actual fighting shape no matter how much money you spent .
Thia is just about handing money to domestic defense contractors.

If you actually wanted to build up Europe's defense, you would look were you can buy a lot of tested stuff relatively cheap - South Korea comes to mind for tanks.
Plus every single Ukrainian drone operator.

But that won't happen, because Europe can only justify defense spending if it's on EU companies.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

There is a reason why Europe didn't keep up its military, and it was explicitly to assure Russia that it was no military threat to it.
Only Putin decided to take that as a weakness to exploit.

Once Putin is gone, a standing army able to go toe-to-toe with Russia won't be necessary anymore.

So I don't really see the point of spending untold billions on something that won't be operational until it is no longer needed.

 

[theprestige]

There is a reason why Europe didn't keep up its military, and it was explicitly to assure Russia that it was no military threat to it.
Only Putin decided to take that as a weakness to exploit.

Once Putin is gone, a standing army able to go toe-to-toe with Russia won't be necessary anymore.

So I don't really see the point of spending untold billions on something that won't be operational until it is no longer needed.

This attitude is exactly how Europe got into the current mess. The reality is that Moscow will always see it as a sign of weakness, and will always try to exploit. This has been true since Ghengis Khan first rode west.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

So what?
Because of the distance, Russia is no threat because it can be fended off in depth - and Europe has plenty of decent air power.
It also has nukes.

A conventional army capable of taking on the Russian army is pointless and unnecessary.

Russia cannot win a war against Europe as it is today.

 

[carlosy]

So what?
Because of the distance, Russia is no threat because it can be fended off in depth - and Europe has plenty of decent air power.
It also has nukes.

A conventional army capable of taking on the Russian army is pointless and unnecessary.

Russia cannot win a war against Europe as it is today.

Europe doesn't have nukes, GB and France have.
Do you really think either of both are willing to launch a nuke if Putin decides to drop one in Ukraine or maybe even Poland?
Knowing now, that the USA doesn't have their back?
I highly doubt that.

As of today, the USA are borderline enemy of Europe, not ally.

 

[Andy_Ross]

NATO already has an army capable of taking on the Russian army without the USA.

Have you learned nothing from the conflict in Ukraine about the capabilities of the Russian army?

 

[carlosy]

NATO has ◊◊◊◊ without USA.
In a conventional war against Russia, Putin would declare emergency and bring a lot more meat to the front. He might even get a million NK soldiers from Smart Cookie. Yes, EU has modern weapons and technology. But I doubt it would have enough manpower and would be willing to wage a full blown conventional war. Can you guess the political implications in the EU for that?

 

[Andy_Ross]

You live in a fantasy world.

a million north Koreans haha

Why do you think European citizens aren't willing to fight for their countries?

Would these 'political implications' be worse than being killed or enslaved by Russia?

 

[Andy_Ross]

You live in a fantasy world.

a million north Koreans haha

Why do you think NATO and European citizens aren't willing to fight for their countries?

Would these 'political implications' be worse than being killed or enslaved by Russia?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The battle in Ukraine is unusual because of the lack of air superiority by either side. If Europe got kinetically involved, that would change quickly for the benefit of Europe.
And Russian artillery is toast against air power.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Why is Putin in such a hurry?
He seems to want this to end quickly?

His reserves have gone and he's almost run out of equipment.

He knows if it doesn't end soon his army will crumble completely.

How would they have fared against a NATO army?

 

[theprestige]

NATO has ◊◊◊◊ without USA.
In a conventional war against Russia, Putin would declare emergency and bring a lot more meat to the front. He might even get a million NK soldiers from Smart Cookie. Yes, EU has modern weapons and technology. But I doubt it would have enough manpower and would be willing to wage a full blown conventional war. Can you guess the political implications in the EU for that?

What are you talking about? Look at what Ukraine has been able to do, with a fraction of Europe's combined power.

Europe on the front line would have their full arsenal, fully integrated with their doctrine, training, and equipment. They'd have complete access to their combined air power, and no limitations on their use of long range weapons.

Moscow, meanwhile, is gravely depleted. Another million mobiks won't make a difference, when Europe has air superiority and isn't afraid to use it.

The vaunted Red Army of Soviet Russia hasn't been real in a long time. What little was left has been mostly destroyed, failing to conquer Ukraine.

I kinda wish Moscow would try it on, with Poland or Germany. Either one of them, alone, could probably finish the job in a week or so, just with air power.

 

[Ziggurat]

Europe doesn't have nukes, GB and France have.
Do you really think either of both are willing to launch a nuke if Putin decides to drop one in Ukraine or maybe even Poland?

Ukraine? No, they would take other actions against Russia in that even, but not launch their own nukes. There is no mutual defense treaty with Ukraine. Poland? Yeah, probably, it's part of NATO after all. Might be a French style warning shot (they're the only country to have that as part of their nuclear doctrine), but sure.

 

[carlosy]

Well, I don't share your optimism about EU forces, especially in terms of operational readiness.

Russian troops currently get about one square km every day. It's slow, but they still have the upper hand. And ATM, Putin surely is waiting about what will happen. Some say he is currently gathering troops and material to gain more momentum around spring. Don't forget, Russian industry is in war time economy. If they continue on that path they will have a lot more material in a few years.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The entire Russian economy has the size of one of the smaller EU countries.

 

[angrysoba]

So Trump has utterly sold out to Putin?

Punished US allies with sanctions and threats, while rewarding Putin for his evil invasion. Not only that, he has BLAMED Ukraine and Zelensky for Putin’s invasion.

Holy ◊◊◊◊! I always thought the claims that Trump was a Russian stooge were overblown. It looks like they were underplayed.

This is an utter disgrace.

◊◊◊◊ Trump!

◊◊◊◊ Putin!

◊◊◊◊ MAGA!

 

[angrysoba]

What are you talking about? Look at what Ukraine has been able to do, with a fraction of Europe's combined power.

Europe on the front line would have their full arsenal, fully integrated with their doctrine, training, and equipment. They'd have complete access to their combined air power, and no limitations on their use of long range weapons.

Moscow, meanwhile, is gravely depleted. Another million mobiks won't make a difference, when Europe has air superiority and isn't afraid to use it.

The vaunted Red Army of Soviet Russia hasn't been real in a long time. What little was left has been mostly destroyed, failing to conquer Ukraine.

I kinda wish Moscow would try it on, with Poland or Germany. Either one of them, alone, could probably finish the job in a week or so, just with air power.

Yeah. But at this point I would expect Trump to sell F-35s to Russia. He’s on their side now.