The Power of Prayer.

[John Jones]

[...]
I have been told that this science exists. And that people do take it seriously. I will look into this "Science proves that prayer is nothing but illusion and delusion' more closely to see how it actually helps the cause of eradicating wooism.

Let us know how your serious research works-out.

 

[Navigator]

Precisely the claim which you demolished with your placebo argument.

If it worked, if it really worked, people would be foolish to resort to anything else to accomplish their goals. They'd just be praying night and day and watching it work hand over fist.

But it doesn't work. Hence, technology and other forms of applied effort.

Wishful thinking is wishful thinking. It can't compete with real work informed by valid understanding for the reliable realization of goals. The mountain won't come to Mohammed, but it's likely Mohammed can walk to the mountain. As more human needs are reliably and affordably satisfied using time-tested techniques, the things for which people feel the need to pray will dwindle.

But how can it be known that those prayers did not contribute to the eventuality of more and more refined technology as a way of ‘answer’?
Something else to consider is that some Memes have it within their constitution that prayer alone is not sufficient (rather than not required) – and that working toward helping the prayer request with personally energy is also required...

One such kind of prayer has been mentioned. World Peace. End to Famine. These types of prayers have been going on since ancient times, and could be seen by the believer to be part and parcel of ‘request’ (prayer) and ‘answer’ (perhaps not even in the prayers lifetime.)

So ‘wishful thinking’ cannot be understood as ‘prayer’ although some might think so.
I think you have a very good point re the dwindling aspect, AS things improve. Through technology...and of course the hundreds of thousands who together make that possible coupled with the millions and billions who benefit from that technology.

It cannot be flatly stated that prayer had nothing to do with this process. We are speaking about the same billions of people after all.

However, it is relevant that until such a time as they are all equally benefiting from the said technology, prayer of support in that direction (as a preferred outcome) would continue.

 

[Navigator]

You know who prayer never works for? Amputees.

The base player in my band is an amputee. I will ask him his thoughts on that.

 

[Pup]

Apart from the OP I have made no claims about prayer other than it works. I did not offer any examples.

Some of your examples are obviously shallow, and would not necessarily have to be included in ‘what prayer is’ but are part of ‘what people think prayer is’.

These still do not address the fact that probably billions of individuals and thousands of Memes operate under the belief that prayer works.

In general, it works for them. What are they learning from this? That it is a Power.

Dowsing works too. Just ask all the dowsers.

People in general are pretty good at fooling themselves.

HOW, is such a power to be reckoned with if the pursuit of eradicating wooism is to be real, tangible and worth supporting?

I wouldn't want to live in a society that was so successful at controlling its population, that something could be "eradicated" completely by a subset of that society.

Education helps spread better understanding though, among those who are open to new information.

 

[zeggman]

How does anyone hope to think they can talk those ones out of their beliefs?

Tell them to pray they will live forever.

At the point their prayer fails, they will cease to believe.

 

[Navigator]

How many lines would you consider adequate?

I think that this has been covered. Not even a book will do it. This leads me to wonder why people have the (pointless) hope that wooism will really ever be eradicated from the Human Consciousness...or that it won’t really matter that it isn’t...

 

[zeggman]

it won’t really matter that it isn’t...

Depends on the circumstances.

Parents who pray for their children in lieu of proven medical intervention, for instance, are examples of the destructive power of wishful thinking.

People who pray for "the courage to change the things they can, the patience to accept the things they can't, and the wisdom to know the difference" are examples of the neutral-to-beneficial power of wishful thinking.

For most, there is enough slack in the system that a little wishful thinking is mostly harmless.

 

[Navigator]

Let us know how your serious research works-out.

Not that it is necessarily part of the same science, but so far in this thread I can see no evidence that eradicating wooism from human consciousness is any more a realistic alternative than is believing in prayer - and that is taking the position of Neutral observation.

If I looked at the numbers and equated those numbers to power, I would have to say that those who believe in the power of prayer are together more powerful than those who do not.

However, If I looked at the Memes, I would say that no matter how many numbers they may have, or how many prayers they might say, or how much effort they put into eradicating wooism, if they are not directly supporting the Main Meme, they will likely eventually become extinct, either through killing one another off, suicide/self destruction, unavoidable natural event (as with the dinosaurs) or some such other thing.

 

[Navigator]

I wouldn't want to live in a society that was so successful at controlling its population, that something could be "eradicated" completely by a subset of that society.

Education helps spread better understanding though, among those who are open to new information.

Yes.

Or rather...

Yes!

 

[Navigator]

Tell them to pray they will live forever.

At the point their prayer fails, they will cease to believe.

But as we both know - the 'live forever bit' has to do with an alternate reality...therefore it is an unknown.
Therefore they might experience this alternate and continue to believe.

In this reality, science is working on this very thing, but it will take time to actualize and might not even happen and if it does, it will have to involve the ability to move an individual consciousness into a machine which effectively can prolong that consciousness experience way beyond what the human body is able to, and that the machinery (which will wear out) can be traded for an upgrade by leaving one machine and moving into another.

Otherwise, in this physical reality, 'live forever' cannot be an option for the individual - only perhaps for the Consciousness of the species....but still not without the machinery...and certainly not without large gaps in the conscious experience, or somehow merging the two (machine and biology) together.

However, that being the case, it could be still regarded as 'prayer being answered' at least as a means to that end.

 

[zeggman]

If I looked at the numbers and equated those numbers to power, I would have to say that those who believe in the power of prayer are together more powerful than those who do not.

If I look at the numbers, I would have to say that accomplishments which are brought about by prayer are dwarfed by accomplishments which are brought about by methods other than prayer. Those who believe in "the power of getting things done" will wisely not depend on prayer.

However, If I looked at the Memes, I would say that if they are not directly supporting the Main Meme, they will likely eventually become extinct, either through killing one another off, suicide/self destruction, unavoidable natural event (as with the dinosaurs) or some such other thing.

Unintelligible psychobabble. If only the dinosaurs had had the wisdom to support the Main Meme...

A pox on Dawkins for thinking he had to invent a new word for "idea", and a pox on everyone who thought the new word was a good idea.

 

[Arcade22]

That is something of my point though.
If I were to claim that billions of people are (regardless of their cooperation or their opposition with/too one another - as Memes) a really big power to be reckoned with, I would have to offer the evidence. I make that claim. The evidence is quite available.

Memes? And quite frankly i don't care if there are people out there, billions of people even, who believe in this nonsense. Let them pray away cancer. Let them drive out demons out of their children and keep them from receiving medical care. Let them kill each-other over their faith. As long as I'm at a comfortable distance.

I have been told that this science exists. And that people do take it seriously.

No kidding. Where do you think your computer and the software that is running on it comes from?

Wishful thinking? Prayer?

I will look into this "Science proves that prayer is nothing but illusion and delusion' more closely to see how it actually helps the cause of eradicating wooism.

If you really want to "eradicate wooism" then educating people about how to avoid being tricked by others and by themselves is a pretty good starting point. But it's largely an impossible task since, while a lot of people believe in the power of prayer and god and magic and so on, there are more people who WANT to believe in that. They WANT the world to be like that, and nothing but continuous doubt could make them face this uncomfortable reality.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

The base player in my band is an amputee. I will ask him his thoughts on that.

If serious thanks; You can tell him why god won't give him his limbs back.

 

[Navigator]

If I look at the numbers, I would have to say that accomplishments which are brought about by prayer are dwarfed by accomplishments which are brought about by methods other than prayer. Those who believe in "the power of getting things done" will wisely not depend on prayer.

However, in some or even many circumstances the ones praying are doing so because they can't affect the kind of changes they are concerned about...such as "World Peace".
Yes they can do their bit as part of the overall belief in the prayer, but they can’t force the whole world to be at peace with itself.
Meanwhile there are growing efforts by a variety of Memes to make such effort. Some of these are not motivated by prayer so much as necessity or even just because it seems a good thing to work toward.
So there are attempts underway to try and achieve this.

. If only the dinosaurs had had the wisdom to support the Main Meme...

It is unlikely dinosaurs reached a place in the evolution of consciousness to actually create Memes in which to then support.

A pox on Dawkins for thinking he had to invent a new word for "idea", and a pox on everyone who thought the new word was a good idea.

Your wanting to ‘pox’ is similar to prayer only that it is commonly referred to as ‘curse’ due to its destructive insinuation.
Which is interesting all the same because some things which are prayed for are really curses...such as praying for the destruction of ones perceived enemies.

On the subject of ‘ideas’ though, Memes are not just another way of saying ‘ideas’ but more a way of describing how ideas move, and grow and gather support. Essentially Memes are lifeless without Human Beings.

They are created by Human Consciousness and supported by Human Beings.

So in relation to ‘The Main Meme” this is essentially that which supports the nurturing of Human Consciousness and all efforts to ensure that it has the best chance of it surviving and prospering and eventually leaving this planet and exploring and utilizing the Galaxy.

All other Memes are either working against that idea, not interested in that idea or so busy fighting each other for position and prestige that they are not even aware of much else.

 

[Navigator]

If serious thanks; You can tell him why god won't give him his limbs back.

Yes - I realized that was what you were referring to but that 'god' or any other outside force wont grow his legs back, he has an artificial one which he might consider was 'an answer to a prayer' which is what I will ask him...something like.

Q: Did you ever seriously ask 'god' or anything else for your leg back?

If "yes" then:

Q: Do you consider your artificial leg to be some kind of answer to that prayer from the invisible agent you were asking?

 

[Navigator]

Memes?

Yes.
Memes are a way of describing how ideas move, and grow and gather support. They represent groups of like-minded Human Beings. But altogether they are the action of idea(s) made so by those who support them.
They can even branch out into sub systems and sometime such systems disconnect entirely from their parent Meme and join another or stand alone.

And quite frankly i don't care if there are people out there, billions of people even, who believe in this nonsense. Let them pray away cancer. Let them drive out demons out of their children and keep them from receiving medical care. Let them kill each-other over their faith. As long as I'm at a comfortable distance.

Quite frankly, this reinforces what I am saying in regard to the Power aspect, in terms of sheer numbers.
It might in fact be completely stupid to even think that anything could eradicate wooism and thus intelligence is better used for other purposes altogether.
You might have to arrange ahead of the event for to be safe and comfortable and non affected by any of those things you listed...as more sensible than simply praying, wishing or hoping you will be safe from it.


Quote:
I have been told that this science exists. And that people do take it seriously.

No kidding. Where do you think your computer and the software that is running on it comes from?

Wishful thinking? Prayer?

I was referring to the specific science which proves that prayer is illusion and delusional.



Quote:
I will look into this "Science proves that prayer is nothing but illusion and delusion' more closely to see how it actually helps the cause of eradicating wooism.

If you really want to "eradicate wooism" then educating people about how to avoid being tricked by others and by themselves is a pretty good starting point. But it's largely an impossible task since, while a lot of people believe in the power of prayer and god and magic and so on, there are more people who WANT to believe in that. They WANT the world to be like that, and nothing but continuous doubt could make them face this uncomfortable reality.

So ‘wooism’ is that which tricks the self and others. It is largely an impossible task because people want the world to be ‘like that’ and continuous doubt will get them accepting the reality they are in (comfortable or otherwise.)?

My recent observations regarding Magicians being perpetrators of wooism have much merit then.

The best thing I can do is be aware of the tricks I play on myself or allow others to play on me and from that awareness, find the way to change so I don’t trick myself, trick others or allow others to trick me.
This way, while I wouldn’t have much say in other people trying to trick me, I can point out to them I am on to their tricky ways, and when I see them trying their tricks on others, I can speak up about it.

I think though that you are very correct when you say:

“They WANT the world to be like that...”

I understand this is also true of the ‘Whop-de-doers’ who want the world to be nothing worth truly trying to preserve.

Perhaps the two extremes are no more or less than reflections of each other. Those who see the world as a magic place wrought from the hand of some invisible mind, but corrupted by those who couldn’t care less and don’t see the big deal (and so are interfering with the process) and those who don’t think much at all about the whole thing, and see those that do as being somehow delusional and in need of a good truckload of doubt dumped over them, and infused into them.

Somewhere in all this is a ‘middle path’.
1: There is no actual NEED to believe Consciousness or the universe as being the product of some invisible creator being. The fact that it and Consciousness exists is good enough reason to support it.
2: There is no sense in marginalising we or the universe as being nothing special – not worth preserving and there is no sense believing there is no reasonable need or requirement to personally do anything which will help that process

In regard to the survival and nurturing of human consciousness which came from a mindless process, I suspect the ‘woos’ are slightly more useful than the ‘whop-de-dos’ to that process...but only slightly...maybe not significantly.

I would consider then that both the woowoo and the whop-de-do are being tricky and neither are particularly good company to be in the presence of, let alone to be supporting either by being one or the other.

 

[arthwollipot]

Yes - I realized that was what you were referring to but that 'god' or any other outside force wont grow his legs back, he has an artificial one which he might consider was 'an answer to a prayer' which is what I will ask him...something like.

Q: Did you ever seriously ask 'god' or anything else for your leg back?

If "yes" then:

Q: Do you consider your artificial leg to be some kind of answer to that prayer from the invisible agent you were asking?

Now you're expanding the range of circumstances that constitute "answered prayer".

I pray for God to grow my leg back. What is considered "some kind of answer"?

Being given the opportunity to get a new prosthetic?
Being given a free set of crutches?
Qualifying to get disabled parking spot in the carpark?

Or...

My leg growing back?

 

[Navigator]

And quite frankly i don't care if there are people out there, billions of people even, who believe in this nonsense. Let them pray away cancer. Let them drive out demons out of their children and keep them from receiving medical care. Let them kill each-other over their faith. As long as I'm at a comfortable distance.

I see too that 'all those who pray' are thus 'believers in nonsense' and 'kill each other' and 'drive demons out of their children and keep them from medical care' etc...all painted with the same brush.

This is similar to anyone observing some skeptics who might display whop-de-do attitudes about Human Consciousness and our place in the universe as being 'of no importance' and marginalizing an amazingly awesome thing with nothing more than a wave of the hand and a 'ho hum' demeanour and then deciding on that observation that every skeptic must share the same attitude.

It simply isn't truthful.

 

[Navigator]

Now you're expanding the range of circumstances that constitute "answered prayer".

I pray for God to grow my leg back. What is considered "some kind of answer"?

Being given the opportunity to get a new prosthetic?
Being given a free set of crutches?
Qualifying to get disabled parking spot in the carpark?

Or...

My leg growing back?

However, as I said in the opening post:

I have personally used it throughout the greater proportion of my life and have come to recognise the different ways it can be expressed – verbally, in the thoughts, through the emotions, and I have never been disappointed at the results although I can also say that the prayer may not have been answered in any specific way that I may have personally visualized, it does nonetheless show itself to be connected to my request and always shows itself to be a better – more well adjusted and useful – unfolding than any I may have imagined.

I don't think those who criticize the concept of prayer necessarily understand what prayer is, other than it is stupid, useless, pointless, worthless, causes grief and is generally harmful as far as they are concerned.

I can't say I have meet anyone who pray for things like legs growing back, which is why I wouldn't even have thought to ask my friend such the specific question "Have you ever prayed for your leg to grow back' - I wouldn't have thought to ask that and it would be IMO a seriously twisted unfeeling thing to ask him - and that is putting it nicely.

I do understand that there are certain sects and cults and such which go to great extremes to believe their god(s) can do amazing things like making the blind see and the deaf hear and the lame walk etc but I wouldn't go so far as to claim that this proves that everyone who prays, prays in this manner, or anywhere near in this manner.

For example, some people pray more for others than for themselves, are praying for things propelled by empathy and concern and for them it is a good healthy thing to do.

 

[arthwollipot]

I don't think those who criticize the concept of prayer necessarily understand what prayer is, other than it is stupid, useless, pointless, worthless, causes grief and is generally harmful as far as they are concerned.

You're missing my point. As an ex-Christian (baptised with water and fire in a Pentecostal church that believes that the power of God and the Holy Spirit infuses every aspect of life) I am fully aware of what prayer is.

My point is that you have to ask yourself "what constitutes an answer to this prayer?" What events occur that you consider a positive answer? The range of such circumstances is immense. Very rarely does someone get a result that is specifically and unambiguously something that they prayed for. Either they don't pray for something specific, or they do and what they get is similar, but not identical to, what they prayed for. This is the ever-expanding Range of Conditions that can be Interpreted as Success (RCIS).

And this can be explained by the normal chance events occurring, and then being retroactively interpreted as answers to your prayer.

Now, keep in mind that this is true despite my own experience of praying that my car door be unlocked - a specific prayer - and finding that indeed it was - a specific answer. That particular event was a very powerful affirmation of my faith at the time.

When trying to test whether prayer works or not, you need to keep your RCIS as small as possible, to avoid the retroactive interpretation of random events clouding your results. In the case of my car door, my RCIS was very small - only my car door being unlocked could be interpreted as success - and still a better explanation is simply that I had forgotten to lock it.

Praying can make you feel better about yourself, and when random events can be retroactively interpreted as success, it can support the idea of faith. Furthermore, the very act of praying is an act of worship, which is important to the church I was part of in and of itself regardless of the result. But the actual, real-world effects of prayer are all psychosomatic. Buddhist meditation works just as well, and for the same reasons.