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The Power of Prayer.

You're missing my point.

Can I ask you, what exactly was your impression of my opening post?
I will be answering your post here, but just wondered if you and others are missing my point(s) in relation to the power of prayer and the billions who use it, and regardless of the more down to earth alternate explanations which can and are offered, such explanations have no power like the power of prayer.
 
You do seem to ignore the rather human tendency to remember the positive and forget the negative.
Thus reinforcing the belief that it works simply because our minds skip over all the times we prayed for something and it didn't happen.

Prayer also never seems to be able to get something that humans can't make themselves.

Sports teams / athletes are a pretty good example. Often I hear, especially American, athletes and or teams claim that they prayed to god for victory and lo and behold, their prayers were answered as they won. Ignoring the fact that all the others probably did the same and their prayers did NOT work. But since they aren't interviewed, or if they are they are not going to claim that, it seems they praying will give you sports victories.
 
You do seem to ignore the rather human tendency to remember the positive and forget the negative.
Thus reinforcing the belief that it works simply because our minds skip over all the times we prayed for something and it didn't happen.

Prayer also never seems to be able to get something that humans can't make themselves.

Sports teams / athletes are a pretty good example. Often I hear, especially American, athletes and or teams claim that they prayed to god for victory and lo and behold, their prayers were answered as they won. Ignoring the fact that all the others probably did the same and their prayers did NOT work. But since they aren't interviewed, or if they are they are not going to claim that, it seems they praying will give you sports victories.


What you have said here reflects what I am saying in regard to the power of prayer being far greater than any reasonable explanation not related to gods and such which should but does not convince the believer not to believe.

Your above example doesn’t really get to that. What it shows is that two opposing teams prayed to their particular god concept (or whatever) to help them win and the winning teams god was greater.

Now this might not mean for example that a player or number of players from the losing team see this as a significant reason to change their beliefs to align with the winners. Most likely they might ‘forget’ it as you suggested, or perhaps find some reason as to why their ‘god’ did not grant their wish – perhaps something along the lines that they should take the opportunity to focus on their need to win at the expense of others having to lose, or reign in their egos or any number of similar reasons, all designed to keep the faith. Thus even prayer which is not answered the WAY the prayers might like, is not regarded as a non answered prayer THUS, the power of prayer prevails.
 
As an ex-Christian (baptised with water and fire in a Pentecostal church that believes that the power of God and the Holy Spirit infuses every aspect of life) I am fully aware of what prayer is.

You are fully aware of what prayer is in relation to your experience of Pentecostalism.
It can be correctly said that there are many interpretations of ‘what prayer is’, even some of the comments posted in this thread have a particular angle on ‘what prayer is’, but is it wise to paint every practitioner with the same brush?

My point is that you have to ask yourself "what constitutes an answer to this prayer?" What events occur that you consider a positive answer? The range of such circumstances is immense. Very rarely does someone get a result that is specifically and unambiguously something that they prayed for. Either they don't pray for something specific, or they do and what they get is similar, but not identical to, what they prayed for. This is the ever-expanding Range of Conditions that can be Interpreted as Success (RCIS).
And this can be explained by the normal chance events occurring, and then being retroactively interpreted as answers to your prayer.

The RCIS is acceptable. It depends on the person’s subjective experience and ability to be honest with that subjectivity. (with their self)
It is unlikely that something prayed for and the answer to that prayer would then be rejected on account that it could be explained in other ways not related to the prayer itself.

Now, keep in mind that this is true despite my own experience of praying that my car door be unlocked - a specific prayer - and finding that indeed it was - a specific answer. That particular event was a very powerful affirmation of my faith at the time.

In terms of Memes, your ‘faith’ as described was Pentecostal, Christian, belief that the power of that particular god concept and the holy spirit which infuses every aspect of life.
Thus the prayer was a powerful affirmation to THAT particular belief system.
It likely affirmed for you that your god concept actually existed and strengthen your support of that Meme.

I don’t think Memes have the power to answer prayers but can take the credit for them which strengthens the Memes ability to continue being supported by its adherents.


When trying to test whether prayer works or not, you need to keep your RCIS as small as possible, to avoid the retroactive interpretation of random events clouding your results. In the case of my car door, my RCIS was very small - only my car door being unlocked could be interpreted as success - and still a better explanation is simply that I had forgotten to lock it.

The most likely explanation is that you forgot to lock it. However, does that really matter in relation to your prayer, or the fact that this example was a significant moment for you in relation to your faith being strengthened?

I can understand that in hindsight you might see it as a big mistake because you allowed it to have the effect it did and that effect was ultimately not good for you.
(I am assuming this of course, based on the fact that you say you are an EX –Christian (of the Pentecostal variety).


Praying can make you feel better about yourself, and when random events can be retroactively interpreted as success, it can support the idea of faith. Furthermore, the very act of praying is an act of worship, which is important to the church I was part of in and of itself regardless of the result. But the actual, real-world effects of prayer are all psychosomatic. Buddhist meditation works just as well, and for the same reasons.

What if, for example – someone who had no affiliation with religious institutions, no belief in any particular god concepts – drank beer and smoked and even use the ‘f’’ word, considered him/her self to pray, not even always aloud or even necessarily in their head, but also thought about life in terms of being in it and interacting with it and it was more sort of conversational, and not even so much always with words as with feelings, and regarded nature as a friend which seemed able to respond in a variety of ways - ways which confirmed for that individual that there was a definite connection with something which appeared to be intelligent, was not ‘god’ in any particular sense of the word but still was pretty darn awesome, AND this was not a stop start, sometimes on sometimes off kind of thing, but happened perpetually, even when the person slept and dreamed...

...AND it not only made the person feel good about themselves but about others as well, and life in general...



...If that person felt that what he/she was doing was kind of perpetual prayer, conscious interaction with an invisible Intelligence which was able to use physical reality as a means to interact...

...Would you regard this as ‘prayer’ yourself, or would it have nothing to do with how you learned to understand ‘what prayer is’ through your particular now defunct belief?
 
A bit OT: Navigator, why are your posts in a small, different font. I find them hard to read and for longer ones like the previous post, I just give up. Can you just revert to the default?
 
Yes - I realized that was what you were referring to but that 'god' or any other outside force wont grow his legs back, he has an artificial one which he might consider was 'an answer to a prayer' which is what I will ask him...something like.

Q: Did you ever seriously ask 'god' or anything else for your leg back?

If "yes" then:

Q: Do you consider your artificial leg to be some kind of answer to that prayer from the invisible agent you were asking?

Why don't you pray that everyone in this thread will agree with you?
 
What you have said here reflects what I am saying in regard to the power of prayer being far greater than any reasonable explanation not related to gods and such which should but does not convince the believer not to believe.

Your above example doesn’t really get to that. What it shows is that two opposing teams prayed to their particular god concept (or whatever) to help them win and the winning teams god was greater.

Now this might not mean for example that a player or number of players from the losing team see this as a significant reason to change their beliefs to align with the winners. Most likely they might ‘forget’ it as you suggested, or perhaps find some reason as to why their ‘god’ did not grant their wish – perhaps something along the lines that they should take the opportunity to focus on their need to win at the expense of others having to lose, or reign in their egos or any number of similar reasons, all designed to keep the faith. Thus even prayer which is not answered the WAY the prayers might like, is not regarded as a non answered prayer THUS, the power of prayer prevails.

OR, just to throw something out there, competitions are set up so that only a single team can win, and the team that worked hardest and/or had a good stroke of luck won, which they would have done even if none of them had prayed a second.
 
What you have said here reflects what I am saying in regard to the power of prayer being far greater than any reasonable explanation not related to gods and such which should but does not convince the believer not to believe.

Your above example doesn’t really get to that. What it shows is that two opposing teams prayed to their particular god concept (or whatever) to help them win and the winning teams god was greater.

Now this might not mean for example that a player or number of players from the losing team see this as a significant reason to change their beliefs to align with the winners. Most likely they might ‘forget’ it as you suggested, or perhaps find some reason as to why their ‘god’ did not grant their wish – perhaps something along the lines that they should take the opportunity to focus on their need to win at the expense of others having to lose, or reign in their egos or any number of similar reasons, all designed to keep the faith. Thus even prayer which is not answered the WAY the prayers might like, is not regarded as a non answered prayer THUS, the power of prayer prevails.

It has yet to be shown that prayer has any power.
 
A bit OT: Navigator, why are your posts in a small, different font. I find them hard to read and for longer ones like the previous post, I just give up. Can you just revert to the default?

Special is as special does.
 
What you have said here reflects what I am saying in regard to the power of prayer being far greater than any reasonable explanation not related to gods and such which should but does not convince the believer not to believe. <snip>

<highlighted>

You keep saying this yet you have still not found the time or the decency to follow the link given earlier that demonstrates that Intercessory prayer was found detrimental to 'heart' patients.
 
So...you don't understand confirmation bias, you don't understand the placebo effect, and you reject both of the above and scientific research and simply choose to ignore them or dodge around them when someone brings them up?

Yeah, you're going to win people over.
 
So...you don't understand confirmation bias, you don't understand the placebo effect, and you reject both of the above and scientific research and simply choose to ignore them or dodge around them when someone brings them up?

Yeah, you're going to win people over.

Many woos have taken to using the term placebo effect as if it were some mystic mind power.
 
Do you think a one line statement is adequate an argument to encourage those who know that Prayer works to ignore their experience?

No it was actually sort of wordy and a little too complicated and overly indepth.

Here I'll fix it.

*Clears throat*

No.
 
Prayers works pretty good if:

- You are praying for things which are statistically likely to happen anyway.
- Your prayers are worded in such a way as any result could be twisted after the fact to be seen as a "positive result."
- You just simply ignore the ones that don't work and focus on the ones that do. (This seems to give the best results.)
 
I see too that 'all those who pray' are thus 'believers in nonsense' and 'kill each other' and 'drive demons out of their children and keep them from medical care' etc...all painted with the same brush.

This is similar to anyone observing some skeptics who might display whop-de-do attitudes about Human Consciousness and our place in the universe as being 'of no importance' and marginalizing an amazingly awesome thing with nothing more than a wave of the hand and a 'ho hum' demeanour and then deciding on that observation that every skeptic must share the same attitude.

It simply isn't truthful.

So you have no science then? Nothing? Just the "experience" of fools and mystical nonsense? I'm not impressed.
 
OR, just to throw something out there, competitions are set up so that only a single team can win, and the team that worked hardest and/or had a good stroke of luck won, which they would have done even if none of them had prayed a second.

Of course.

Some who do pray would think this kind of thing is a strange thing to be praying about.

Nonetheless, that is the power of prayer. It is an influential thing to which a large majority of the worlds population practice.
A power to be reckoned with.
 
So the fantastic power of prayer is wishful thinking (or happy thoughts) that doesn't affect the outcome of anything?

Some power. :rolleyes:

ETA: So your arugent is that lots of people do it so it must be very powerful? Is that right?
 
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Do you think a one line statement is adequate an argument to encourage those who know that Prayer works to ignore their experience?

It is very rare that those which arrive to a conclusion by non rational means, are convinced by rational means.

Personally I am more than satisfied that what is evidenced to work, is used in public policy, what is NOT evidenced to work, I can leave it to the domain of personal belief.
 
But the power of Prayer does exist in the experiences of those (perhaps billions) who use it.

Only because of psychological bias, aka : they remember the good thigns which hapenned after a prayer and forget when nothing happens.

The 'agency' credited depends on the particular Meme which the individual is aligned with and supports.

The individual does the crediting, or acknowledges and supports the leaders of whatever particular Meme the individual belongs to and supports - in agreeing with those leaders as to the agency.


Does not matter, you may as well pray to a milk jug. Once you eliminate all bias and study prayer, there has never been evidence of any effect of prayer.
 

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