The Power of Prayer.

[Navigator]

No attempt to address the scientific study of prayer?

I am assuming you are referring to a link you may have provided. I will be looking more into that, so yes - there will be an attempt.
At present I am more interested in the immediate responses to gauge how individuals 'see' prayer to get a better overall understanding of the differences.

 

[Dissolution]

Wouldn't you be better off working out whether something actually works before trying to focus on other aspects of it?

 

[s4zando]

At present I am more interested in the immediate responses to gauge how individuals 'see' prayer to get a better overall understanding of the differences.

I engage in rigorous prayer. I pray to lose weight, keep it off, and have a healthy heart. My prayer of choice is one in which I repeatedly put one foot in front of the other as quickly as I can, for as long as I can. My prayers are always answered.

I once tried the kind of prayer where you just talk about wanting certain outcomes, but it was unreliable, at best.

 

[Navigator]

I'm sure most of the passengers on the planes on 9/11 were praying to see their families again.

Harsh.

But yes, you would be correct. So we can see there are different types of prayer, depending on the situation one is in.
It may even be that there will be stories where some of those who survived the ordeal of 9/11 will gladly say they did so because they prayed.

This of course can be extended to all who pray regardless of their particular personal identity or the identity of their preferred agent.
The practical result is reinforcement of belief system.

This 'practical result' is of course very non practical and even disturbing to those who don't see the power of the practice of prayer as being real.

 

[Navigator]

Originally Posted by Navigator

Or:
The mind is far more capable of effecting things than we realise, and that there is no outside mindless assistance (agency) involved.

No it isn't.

Then 'Placebo Effect' is not a good argument.

 

[zeggman]

If this were real, pharmaceutical companies would not exist.
People would just engage their placebo and effect the necessary changes.

You seem to have demolished your own claim.

If prayer worked, no technology would exist. People would just pray themselves into whatever end-state they had in mind.

"Dear Lord, whisk me to Paris."

"Dear Lord, create a table, fill it with plates, and slather them with delicious food. When I have finished eating, poof the table and plates into the void again, and replace them with a couch and TV on which my sports team will play to easy victory. Scratch that last request, I'd like two seats mid-court next to Jack Nicholson, who will find me to be a brilliant conversationalist. Amen."

"Dear Lord, world peace, and an end to poverty and disease. Don't make me ask again."

 

[Navigator]

I'm sure most of the passengers on the planes on 9/11 were praying to see their families again.

There are 2 arguments (at least) against this:
1) The terrorists and their backers were praying that they'd succeed, too.
2) They will see their families in the afterlife.

These are relevant reasons why the power of prayer is powerful.

Add the other old ones about god moving in mysterious ways, you don't always get what you pray for, etc. and any other excuses that anyone can think of for prayer.

Yet this does not address the idea that those who hope to eradicate wooism have little chance if any of acutely doing so.
Prayer simply is too much a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Dissolution]

No.

 

[Navigator]

I engage in rigorous prayer. I pray to lose weight, keep it off, and have a healthy heart. My prayer of choice is one in which I repeatedly put one foot in front of the other as quickly as I can, for as long as I can. My prayers are always answered.

I once tried the kind of prayer where you just talk about wanting certain outcomes, but it was unreliable, at best.

So yes – there are ‘kinds of prayer’ some more reliable than others.
The ‘reliability’ ultimately has to do with personal preference and whether the outcome aligns with that preference.

 

[Navigator]

You seem to have demolished your own claim.

If prayer worked, no technology would exist. People would just pray themselves into whatever end-state they had in mind.

"Dear Lord, whisk me to Paris."

"Dear Lord, create a table, fill it with plates, and slather them with delicious food. When I have finished eating, poof the table and plates into the void again, and replace them with a couch and TV on which my sports team will play to easy victory. Scratch that last request, I'd like two seats mid-court next to Jack Nickolson, who will find me to be a brilliant conversationalist. Amen."

"Dear Lord, world peace, and an end to poverty and disease. Don't make me ask again."

Apart from the OP I have made no claims about prayer other than it works. I did not offer any examples.

Some of your examples are obviously shallow, and would not necessarily have to be included in ‘what prayer is’ but are part of ‘what people think prayer is’.

These still do not address the fact that probably billions of individuals and thousands of Memes operate under the belief that prayer works.

In general, it works for them. What are they learning from this? That it is a Power.

HOW, is such a power to be reckoned with if the pursuit of eradicating wooism is to be real, tangible and worth supporting?

 

[Arcade22]

But the power of Prayer does exist in the experiences of those (perhaps billions) who use it.

And? Their experiences of "power" are completely illusory and proves nothing. Show the science that proves that the "power" is nothing but illusion and delusion or no one is going to take you seriously.

 

[s4zando]

So yes – there are ‘kinds of prayer’ some more reliable than others.
The ‘reliability’ ultimately has to do with personal preference and whether the outcome aligns with that preference.

Sure, but not exactly. My example simply was to point out that what some people call 'prayer', I call 'jogging.' I have no use for conventional prayer, the signal is lost. My form of prayer also involves many of the virtues extolled by the religious: personal sacrifice, poverty, and sore knees.

I would say the 'reliablility' has nothing to do with personal preference, but with taking measurable steps to achieve a goal. If you are waiting for the outcomes to align with personal preference, that's some cherry-picking, with a dash of confirmation bias.

 

[arthwollipot]

Apart from the OP I have made no claims about prayer other than it works. I did not offer any examples.

Some of your examples are obviously shallow, and would not necessarily have to be included in ‘what prayer is’ but are part of ‘what people think prayer is’.

These still do not address the fact that probably billions of individuals and thousands of Memes operate under the belief that prayer works.

In general, it works for them. What are they learning from this? That it is a Power.

HOW, is such a power to be reckoned with if the pursuit of eradicating wooism is to be real, tangible and worth supporting?

It depends on your definition of "it works".

Prayer is subject to a massive amount of confirmation bias. I left my keys in my car once, and only realised it halfway through the day. As I went back to my car, I prayed that it was unlocked. And it was. Was that a prayer answered, or did I just forget to lock the car? At the time, I counted it as a prayer answered.

When I was in a hurry and prayed for a green traffic light, and it changed just before I got to the intersection, was that a prayer answered? Or just lucky timing?

When you pray for something, you are specifically focusing your intention on it. When the results you are praying for come about strictly by chance, you notice it and count it as a prayer answered. How many times do you pray for some outcome and it doesn't happen? How many times do you get a good outcome without praying for it? Unless you engage in the near-impossible task of counting all these other circumstances, you cannot say that praying works any better than not praying. Good things happen on their own. If you stop praying for them, good things don't stop happening.

Here's an experiment I'd like you to try, Navigator. Stop praying. Just for a week. But during that week, carry a diary and note down all the positive things that happen to you. Even the little ones. I think you'll quickly find that whether you pray or not has no effect on the rate at which positive events happen in your life.

 

[zeggman]

Apart from the OP I have made no claims about prayer other than it works.

Precisely the claim which you demolished with your placebo argument.

If it worked, if it really worked, people would be foolish to resort to anything else to accomplish their goals. They'd just be praying night and day and watching it work hand over fist.

But it doesn't work. Hence, technology and other forms of applied effort.

Wishful thinking is wishful thinking. It can't compete with real work informed by valid understanding for the reliable realization of goals. The mountain won't come to Mohammed, but it's likely Mohammed can walk to the mountain. As more human needs are reliably and affordably satisfied using time-tested techniques, the things for which people feel the need to pray will dwindle.

 

[Nay_Sayer]

You know who prayer never works for? Amputees.

 

[s4zando]

^^Betcha Oscar Pistorias prayed to go to the Olympics at some point. How'd you suppose that was achieved? Hard work or something? Pshaw.

If he prays not to go to jail for shooting his girlfriend, I would hope his prayers included phoning a great lawyer.

 

[fishbob]

What is Prayer, how come it works and is it even necessarily 'wooish'?

Something to do when you can't do anything useful to make you feel like you are doing something useful.

It doesn't, unless by 'works' you mean 'makes you feel like you are doing something useful even though you aren't'.

Yes. Promoting the idea that talking to yourself is somehow helpful to others is most definitely wooish.

 

[Navigator]

Their experiences of "power" are completely illusory and proves nothing.

That is something of my point though.
If I were to claim that billions of people are (regardless of their cooperation or their opposition with/too one another - as Memes) a really big power to be reckoned with, I would have to offer the evidence. I make that claim. The evidence is quite available.

Show the science that proves that the "power" is nothing but illusion and delusion or no one is going to take you seriously.

I have been told that this science exists. And that people do take it seriously. I will look into this "Science proves that prayer is nothing but illusion and delusion' more closely to see how it actually helps the cause of eradicating wooism.

 

[Navigator]

Sure, but not exactly. My example simply was to point out that what some people call 'prayer', I call 'jogging.' I have no use for conventional prayer, the signal is lost. My form of prayer also involves many of the virtues extolled by the religious: personal sacrifice, poverty, and sore knees.

I would say the 'reliablility' has nothing to do with personal preference, but with taking measurable steps to achieve a goal. If you are waiting for the outcomes to align with personal preference, that's some cherry-picking, with a dash of confirmation bias.

The difference might be then that you are not assigning an agent outside of your self and that your circumstances usually allow for you to make a personal effort in attaining what you want to achieve, on your own or in relations to others.

A 'personal power' but arguably not 'prayer' at all.

For example, there are times when individuals find themselves in particular circumstances where nothing they believe or can do is going to change that circumstance but they pray anyway, and according to their own witness, seemingly miraculous events transpire to which they had no control over but the results were still considered answers to prayer.

How does anyone hope to think they can talk those ones out of their beliefs?

 

[John Jones]

Do you think a one line statement is adequate an argument to encourage those who know that Prayer works to ignore their experience?

How many lines would you consider adequate?