The Power of Prayer.

[Explorer]

This thread seems to have gone off topic and turned into a scientific debate as to how meditation/prayer etc can affect brain function. Navigator's position is that it doesn't just affect brain function, but can also magically change reality, and that is quite a different matter. The latter requires evidence, not anecdotal evidence or hearsay, and we haven't yet seen any.

 

[Navigator]

This thread seems to have gone off topic and turned into a scientific debate as to how meditation/prayer etc can affect brain function.

Not at all. The thread remains very on topic as far as I am concerned.

Navigator's position is that it doesn't just affect brain function, but can also magically change reality...

Incorrect.

If I mention 'magic' it is in this context:

I am very much enthusiastic about the idea of the non physical (Consciousness) arriving out from the physical. Its almost 'magic' and for many centuries has been treated as such, but bear in mind please that absolutely every concept to do with magical, mystical, spiritual, religious cultural, mythology and belief is derived through consciousness, and is both understandable and forgivable as a process of the evolution of Consciousness, as it pertains to this planet.

The AWE remains in regard to the magic of not only the fact that the physical universe came from no thing, but that the mindful (Consciousness) came from the mindless. That is magical it the truest sense of the word.

I sometimes have mention magic in relation to magicians, such as:

Illusions are interesting. The illusionist Dynamo often uses wooism to further capture the attention of those he is playing his tricks on. In this way magicians who use the same or similar method (like with Dynamo - when he pretends to be focusing and concentrating on reading the persons mind and adds to the illusion that he really is reading the persons mind) all entertainment of course but still not helpful in the overall support of eradicating wooism altogether - rather it simply encourages wooism to continue.
I guess the bottom line argument in that regard is that magicians have to eat too.

As far as prayer goes, it is a ritual which isn't necessarily confined to asking some god concept to do things on your behalf.
I have observed my own interactions with the ritual of prayer in its various practices and understand the correlation with my conscious awareness as an individual through subjective experience and the environment I am involved within, and while many times it has appeared 'magical' I understand that it is more natural than supernatural.

The latter requires evidence, not anecdotal evidence or hearsay, and we haven't yet seen any.

I don't even understand why anyone thinks supernatural or paranormal are actual real things. I think everything can be explained naturally...and while we might not understand a lot of things, we do not need to resort to filling in the blanks with supernatural 'explanations'.

My understanding on prayer therefore does not require supporting evidence, because I am speaking from a subjective experience and are not making supernatural claims about it.
Hearsay and anecdotes are therefore quite acceptable.

What isn't that acceptable is to misrepresent me the way you have Explorer. Please do your research before making such comments in future.

Thank You.

 

[zeggman]

Navigator's position is that it doesn't just affect brain function, but can also magically change reality, and that is quite a different matter.

Incorrect.

Explorer, you are correct:

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

That's from the OP. Navigator might wish to backpedal and retract and deny that this is what he said. He might wish to hide it in layer upon layer of mushmouthed memespeak, but that's where this thread started.

The claim that prayer has the power to make mental requests directed to a mindless universe "unfold in reality" has not been supported, and is probably unsupportable. Hence, the thread drift. Perhaps recognizing on some level that the OP is nonsense, Navigator says something vague and different and incomprehensible and nonsensical and pretends the OP never happened.

 

[Dissolution]

My understanding on prayer therefore does not require supporting evidence, because I am speaking from a subjective experience and are not making supernatural claims about it.
Hearsay and anecdotes are therefore quite acceptable.

No, they're not.
You're making claims, regardless of whether they're supernatural or not.
You have nothing worthwhile to support them and various studies that suggest that you're wrong.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Navigator you seem to be suffering from a rather bad case of wanting to have one's confectionery and consume it as well.

If what you are describing is simply self actualization or meditation or affirmations or just.. hope and you are so insisting on (supposedly) stripping away the metaphysical and spiritual detritus from it... then why the continued insistence on calling "prayer?"

We go through this song and dance a lot in this subforum where someone will run in screaming that so and so woo exist but when pressed they then try to distance themselves from the actual thing as much as possible.

I've come to the conclusion that some people, for reasons that baffle me to no end, simply can't stand it when something is explained in simple, rational terms and feel that something is lost if there is no silly spiritual woo in there somewhere so they just to... I don't know remove the woo but keep the word in there for some reason. And we spend pages arguing with the OP that is just basically just going "This thing is not the thing everyone uses when they use this word argue argue argue but I'm going to continue to use that word to describe because of reason reasons reasons." And 9 times out 10 it is just a setup for a Woo Gotcha at some point anyway.

What you are claiming to describe is not prayer as that term is used. Words mean things. You can't just call something that's not prayer prayer because... you want to associate with it and not at the same time.

 

[Navigator]

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

That is true.

 

[Dissolution]

That is true.

That's a claim and as such you need to support it with evidence.

 

[dlorde]

It is indeed 'belief systems' which prompt acts of prayer.

Take the Atheist belief that if they can create a movement which will snowball into something they wish to achieve - like educating those who believe in woo-stuff to change the way they think in order to convert that individual to become an Atheist and contribute to the cause of getting rid of woo-ism. The same processes are involved, and the only significant difference is that Atheists do not ask for the help of some invisible god-concept to achieve this wishful thing.

Equating prayer with the aspiration to educate is more than moving the goalposts, it's a whole new game - a mug's game.

 

[Navigator]

No, they're not.
You're making claims, regardless of whether they're supernatural or not.
You have nothing worthwhile to support them and various studies that suggest that you're wrong.

This is the thing though you see...'various studies suggest I am wrong about my own experiences related to prayer' will not make a believer of me, because of the Power of Prayer in relation to my individual self awareness through ongoing personal experience.

There is no way that I can prove my subjective experience regarding prayer in its many various forms - to anyone.
Therefore your expression is false.

I can share how prayer has worked for me by providing anecdotes but this cannot be seen as evidence, and I wouldn't share it under the assumption that it was evidence.

If you want to know if prayer works, learn about what prayer is, the different ways it is expressed (verbal, visualized, intuited, felt etc) and make the effort to discover for yourself as an individual whether there is any co-relation between you the individual and the environment you are involved with in relation to prayer.

If you are unable to do this, that is no reflection on me. It has no bearing on my own experience.

 

[Navigator]

To be clear, I'm not claiming "therefore god", or therefore any supernatural claim (I don't think Navigator is either, but perhaps I'm wrong?).

No you are correct JasonR - I have said enough times in this and other threads, I cannot even understand why supernatural/paranormal are talked about.

Everything is natural and normal. Only the way people interpret events or personalities and then decide these are not ordinary or easy to understand therefore must be supernatural or wooish etc...

 

[Navigator]

That's a claim and as such you need to support it with evidence.

But look at what you are calling a claim.

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

What exactly in that statement can be regarded as a claim?

 

[Navigator]

If what you are describing is simply self actualization or meditation or affirmations or just.. hope and you are so insisting on (supposedly) stripping away the metaphysical and spiritual detritus from it... then why the continued insistence on calling "prayer?"

Because that is the nearest word to describe it. It will do, even given that it causes confusion with some because they only see a certain type of thing to being 'prayer' like those who commented in this thread about praying for legs to grow back - and other such things - it can't be helped that people have different opinions on 'what prayer is' or if the effort is to remain not on the same page about the meaning of words.

If a word does pop up which I think might be more helpful to use, I certainly would.

But really, when we allow words alone to stifle the more important aspect of communicating effectively then 'the power of words' becomes that which over-rides the need to get on the same page, which is really the first step to effective communication.

Getting on the same page is not about 'hey you. agree with me' it is about finding ways we can better understand each other that we might have a place to actually begin truer communication

 

[Hokulele]

But look at what you are calling a claim.

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

What exactly in that statement can be regarded as a claim?

That statement reads as, "Your mind can control things it has no control over.", which is a supernatural claim.

 

[Dissolution]

But look at what you are calling a claim.

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

What exactly in that statement can be regarded as a claim?

The entire thing is a claim! How is that not a claim?!

This is the thing though you see...'various studies suggest I am wrong about my own experiences related to prayer' will not make a believer of me, because of the Power of Prayer in relation to my individual self awareness through ongoing personal experience.

There is no way that I can prove my subjective experience regarding prayer in its many various forms - to anyone.
Therefore your expression is false.

I can share how prayer has worked for me by providing anecdotes but this cannot be seen as evidence, and I wouldn't share it under the assumption that it was evidence.

If you want to know if prayer works, learn about what prayer is, the different ways it is expressed (verbal, visualized, intuited, felt etc) and make the effort to discover for yourself as an individual whether there is any co-relation between you the individual and the environment you are involved with in relation to prayer.

If you are unable to do this, that is no reflection on me. It has no bearing on my own experience.

Attempt to shift the burden of proof.
You're claiming that prayer works and that there's a method by which it works.
You've failed to demonstrate that in any way and any attempts to show you that studies of it have failed have been met by attempts to redefine what prayer is, so that it doesn't apply to you personally.

 

[Pup]

This is the thing though you see...'various studies suggest I am wrong about my own experiences related to prayer' will not make a believer of me, because of the Power of Prayer in relation to my individual self awareness through ongoing personal experience.

There is no way that I can prove my subjective experience regarding prayer in its many various forms - to anyone.
Therefore your expression is false.

I can share how prayer has worked for me by providing anecdotes but this cannot be seen as evidence, and I wouldn't share it under the assumption that it was evidence.

If you want to know if prayer works, learn about what prayer is, the different ways it is expressed (verbal, visualized, intuited, felt etc) and make the effort to discover for yourself as an individual whether there is any co-relation between you the individual and the environment you are involved with in relation to prayer.

If you are unable to do this, that is no reflection on me. It has no bearing on my own experience.

What you're overlooking is that people can trump subjective impressions with objective evidence. Take an optical illusion, for example. If I look at one, I subjectively see the lines as different lengths, for example.

If I lay a ruler along the lines and discover they're the same length, I don't conclude that my subjective experience is right, so therefore the ruler must be wrong. Even though the lines still appear different lengths, I trust the ruler and know my eyes are fooling me.

So your last two paragraphs above sound like poor advice to me. They sound as if you're saying, "don't trust the ruler. If you want to know the length of the lines, just look at them subjectively. Can't you see they're different lengths? It's not my fault you can't see it."

It's not that I/anyone is unable to experience things subjectively, as if we lack your superior skills.

It's that I/we are able to do so, but we don't think that trusting those subjective experiences is a useful way to understand the world. You do. That's the difference.

I experience and enjoy optical illusions, paredolia, the excitement of seeing patterns in coincidence, and similar ways the brain fools us, as much as most people, but I don't think that those experiences should trump other more objective ways of understanding reality.

You sound like so many people who promote paranormal things: if only people would experience it, they'd realize how great it is! Well, no. Such experiences are widespread, so many (most) people already know how much or little such experiences mean to them, personally. The difference is that not everyone puts as much importance on them as you do.

Edited to add: And if you say that you're not claiming prayer is supernatural, I'd respond like Hokule: "That statement reads as, 'Your mind can control things it has no control over.', which is a supernatural claim." In other words, it may be fun to "believe" I can control things I have no control over, in a superficial way, like "believing" the dinosaurs are real in Jurassic Park as a way of getting caught up in the movie to make it more exciting, but if the believing goes any deeper than that, it's a supernatural claim.

 

[JoeMorgue]

But look at what you are calling a claim.

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

What exactly in that statement can be regarded as a claim?

So your argument is that your claim is so vague it's not a claim?

That is just farcical.

 

[tsig]

Equating prayer with the aspiration to educate is more than moving the goalposts, it's a whole new game - a mug's game.

Anytime you debate a woo you're likely to get mugged.

Woo defines word

Consequences of that definition are pointed out

Woo redefines word

Excetera, excetera, excetera.

"Looks like what we got here is a failure to communicate'

 

[dlorde]

This video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvd__Wv9po

Does not expose the falseness of the ideomotor effect but rather the falseness of people. It does not suggest that the participants are being mislead by their understandings about what is going on, but that the ideomotor effect itself is false and useless as something to study more indepth, because IT ( ideomotor effect) is hocus pocus.

Did anyone else find this confusing/contradictory?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Because that is the nearest word to describe it. It will do, even given that it causes confusion with some because they only see a certain type of thing to being 'prayer' like those who commented in this thread about praying for legs to grow back - and other such things - it can't be helped that people have different opinions on 'what prayer is' or if the effort is to remain not on the same page about the meaning of words.

If a word does pop up which I think might be more helpful to use, I certainly would.

But really, when we allow words alone to stifle the more important aspect of communicating effectively then 'the power of words' becomes that which over-rides the need to get on the same page, which is really the first step to effective communication.

Getting on the same page is not about 'hey you. agree with me' it is about finding ways we can better understand each other that we might have a place to actually begin truer communication

That is not how language works.

You redefining woo terms to try to deny their woo is not "getting on the same page." It's a cheap, dirty argumentative tactic.

 

[Navigator]

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

Hokulele: That statement reads as, "Your mind can control things it has no control over.", which is a supernatural claim.

Hokulele, et al :
That statement does no such thing. It is how you yourself and anyone else think of such things which proclaims this is stating ‘supernatural’ claims.

There are other possible explanations, but in order to discuss these, we have to get to the same page as to what words mean and how they affect that process.

Simply said, the words we have available to us come from the past, and as such carry with them the relics of past thinking.
Religion packaged prayer, but was not the first institution to recognise the power of prayer. It was the first institution to see a profit in defining what it was and what it wasn’t and selling that idea.

So when I use the word it is inclusive of those things also which religion has deemed ‘not prayer’ – words which may have been lost to the past are gone, but words are just words and new words are always necessary when looking to the future.

New words come along by consensus. People get on the same page.

But what many are proclaiming regarding prayer in this thread, they are actually taking their perspective from religion in that they are supporting religions view on what prayer is and then using that understanding to try and prove my argument is false.

My argument is not false.