The Power of Prayer.

[Hokulele]

Nothing. But it does not convey all that prayer is.

Well, sure. Prayer invokes the supernatural. What do you see as the difference between meditation and prayer?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Bob: I want a hamburger with cheese.
Ted: So a cheeseburger then.
Bob: NO! I want you to make me a hamburger with cheese on it.
Ted: That's a cheeseburger.
Bob: NO! A hamburger with cheese is totally different from a cheeseburger!
Ted: *Sighs* I'll make you a cheesburger.
Bob: NO! I won't be the same!

 

[Navigator]

And yet:

"Prayer – making requests and seeing them unfold in reality as if the mindless physical universe has a mind, can hear, understands, is intelligent and able to interact with the individual mind in relation to the outside influences of nature and circumstance to which the mind has no direct control over."

So, not the universe, just some inchoate capitalized Consciousness which permeates the universe and satisfies your requests as if they were being satisfied by the universe? But not God, and not magic.

Let us agree at least, that the words 'as if' represent 'appear to be' but offer no further explanation as to what IS actually happening.
They are just words saying effectively 'it appears this way to the one experiencing it, but this cannot be the explanation, because the universe is mindless.

Therefore we would have to look at Consciousness itself as that which is responsible for how it appears.

We cannot do this with any great certainty if we are only going along on the word of wooism, which tends to define ‘what appears to be happening’ as ‘this is what is happening.’

The question then is how does an individual Conscious awareness effect its environment to the degree that it is able to identify the outward unfolding reality with its inward expressions of things to do with prayer?

Simply stating that it is some personal illusion will not convince those who are using such interactive experience. The interactive experience is far too powerful a thing for off handed remarks and requires more respect that simple dabbling in scientific approach and from that dabbling conclude - sometimes as absolutes - that the scientific explanation is correct - especially when scientific research is only going on what established religious practices (wooism) say about these things.

That process only proves that what wooism say about anything is false. What is wooism that its word can be taken as gospel, while all else is ignored?

 

[Nay_Sayer]

Lets say I pray for rain and my buddy prays for sunshine and we both do it super serious, who wins? Do our prays cancel each other out and fog happens? Do our prays duke it out mortal kombat style?

 

[Navigator]

Are you sure you linked to the right video? the one I saw suggested the ideomotor effect was the cause of the ouija board hocus pocus (according to Lauren Pancratz(?), psychologist).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykvd__Wv9po

Yes that is the right video.

You are also correct about what the video suggests...that the ideomotor effect was the cause of ouija board hocus pocus, but that is not the truth.

The cause of ouija board hocus pocus is actually related to those who use it - their beliefs, their wooism, etc...

The cause of ideomotor effect - that it even does anything, is related to something else which is not about wooism.

What causes the effect has to do with Consciousness, principally I think - the aspect of Consciousness we each have which is often referred to as 'the sub conscious' and this subconsciousness is relatively unknown, but nonetheless exists.

 

[zeggman]

Simply stating that it is some personal illusion will not convince those who are using such interactive experience.

Still, since that is what it is, one might as well say so. Letting the delusions of the deluded dictate what can be stated is letting the inmates run my asylum.

The interactive experience is far too powerful a thing for off handed remarks and requires more respect that simple dabbling in scientific approach and from that dabbling conclude - sometimes as absolutes - that the scientific explanation is correct - especially when scientific research is only going on what established religious practices (wooism) say about these things.

You applied for a job, and you got a job. If that interactive experience has overwhelmed your critical thinking ability to the extent that you feel prayers were certainly answered, that's really not my problem.

 

[Navigator]

What do you see as the difference between meditation and prayer?

I don't see any difference. They are aspects of the same thing.

 

[Navigator]

Still, since that is what it is, one might as well say so. Letting the delusions of the deluded dictate what can be stated is letting the inmates run my asylum.


You applied for a job, and you got a job. If that interactive experience has overwhelmed your critical thinking ability to the extent that you feel prayers were certainly answered, that's really not my problem.

zeggman you are still coming from a woo perspective.

see my post here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9362395&postcount=180

You have seen one example that I have shared and I have stated that i have a great number of examples.
The one about the job was just one of many since.
So I have no problem that can be your problem - I do not hang all my critical thinking on just one incident, as you appear to so rudely or ignorantly imply.

 

[zeggman]

zeggman you are still coming from a woo perspective.

You have offered nothing to distinguish your idiosyncratic view of prayer from the standard view of prayer, except an empty assertion that you have something else in mind.

You have seen one example that I have shared and I have stated that i have a great number of examples.

I assumed you would lead with a convincer. I was not convinced.

The one about the job was just one of many since.

Wonderful. I've landed lots of jobs in my lifetime, and never once prayed for one. Also one of many since.

So I have no problem that can be your problem - I do not hang all my critical thinking on just one incident, as you appear to so rudely or ignorantly imply.

You're choosing to keep your examples to yourself, so my ignorance must be the answer to more of your prayers.

 

[Pup]

I am not overlooking that. I am saying that this is one reason the power of prayer trumps the power of scientific investigation.

But it doesn't--at least not for everyone. For some people, yes. For other people, no. Like other skeptics, I see no advantage to voluntarily giving up "the power of scientific investigation."

This is why I have presented the probability that there is an aspect of Human Consciousness which is working its own agenda, having already gotten on the same page in regards to the individuals which support it.

You just got done saying "The brain cannot fool anyone," and now you're claiming "Human Consciousness" has its own agenda. Nonsense.

I'm sure you know how optical illusions work, and that's what I was referring to. What I meant was that our senses, as interpreted by our brain, fool us into thinking the lines are different lengths, or the circles are rotating, or whatever, but when we do something to counteract the specific situation, such as lay a ruler beside it or cover up part of the pattern, the illusion disappears.

Again...I am not even saying I am controlling it. I haven’t said much at all in regard to how I see myself and it.
But certainly not ‘controlling’ – I am participating equally with it and acknowledge the part I play with it.
Doe’s this make life more ‘exciting’?
Sure! Why wouldn’t it?

If you're not actually controlling it, and you know, objectively speaking, that you're not controlling it, then you're playing pretend. Of course playing pretend makes life more exciting.

But I already know how to play pretend in ways that amuse me, as do most skeptics.

I'm glad you seem to be giving up the whop-te-do straw man, but you still don't seem to want to acknowledge that skeptics also have rich exciting lives, that are probably just as exciting as yours.

Why should I pretend that I can use "prayer" to interact with the universe, when I'd rather pretend that I can step in a time machine and travel to the past? If I could actually control the universe, that'd be one thing, but since I can't, I'd rather fantasize in ways that I already find more entertaining.

 

[Navigator]

zeggman: You have offered nothing to distinguish your idiosyncratic view of prayer from the standard view of prayer, except an empty assertion that you have something else in mind.

Wrong


zeggman: I assumed you would lead with a convincer. I was not convinced.

Assumption can do that.

zeggman: Wonderful. I've landed lots of jobs in my lifetime, and never once prayed for one. Also one of many since.

Again, not necessarily just about 'landing jobs'. Also you seek to minimized what I shared regarding that particular incident.

Although my own studies on what is occurring have changed the way I see and use prayer, these were learned in part from my first believing that some outside god had something to do with it, and it is the same for how Human Consciousness has also evolved in its continuing search for self identity and purpose.

One example related to getting work which happened over 30 years ago involved moving to a town where unemployment was at the nations highest in that town.
Previously I had worked very hard for a year on a Sheep Station and decided I would have 3 weeks break before going out and looking for a job.

My cousin had been unemployed for many months and I was told I shouldn't have moved to this town because there just weren't any jobs.
I was mostly through my adolescence stage but had already reverted back to praying to a god concept and getting results, and I was happy enough to tell those who were concerned that 'god would provide me with a job.'

The first day out looking, at the very first place I went into ask for work, I was asked how soon I could start and said I could start the very next day and was told to turn up, which I did and there you go.

Some did not react kindly to me getting a job because I gave credit to my god concept for having helped provide it.

Nonetheless, that is what happened, and if this were just a one off incident and such things did not present themselves in relation to my life experience on a regular basis, I could easily be persuaded to believe it was simply coincidence.

zeggman: You're choosing to keep your examples to yourself...

I have made the offer but no one has said they were interested in more examples.

 

[Navigator]

Pup

Participating equally with it is not pretending. Controlling it is pretending.

EDIT: In regard to skeptics having fun etc, that is neither here nor there as those who actually believe they can change the world of wooism and banish it altogether from Human Consciousness are not altogether understanding what it is they are attempting to do. They think they understand, based on what wooism has to say about such things, but they make the mistake of believing wooism is some kind of ultimate authority on such things as Prayer, which is believing in a misrepresentation in the first instance.

Fooled.

 

[zeggman]

zeggman: You're choosing to keep your examples to yourself...

I have made the offer but no one has said they were interested in more examples.

Give me all you can.

 

[JaysonR]

I'm sure "a significant reduction in anxiety" could be observed in subjects reciting the lyrics to "Row, Row, Row your boat", or pounding plastic moles with a plastic mallet, or playing the kazoo.

Perhaps.
I don't know; that wasn't part of the study.

I would expect the "ritual" aspect may be so significant that the "religious" aspect could be jettisoned without any negative consequences.

That's what the new field of spiritual neuroscience (or the less appreciated term, "neurotheology" [neuroscientists have voiced dislike for the "neurotheology" term, understandably]) is working on figuring out, and I fully support this endeavor.

Sounds like they don't support a conclusion that they're positive variations either, which would seem to corroborate my expectation that the "religious" aspect is superfluous.

They do conclude positive variations; the citations that I provided conclude positive impact to the psychological and general well-being of the individual in each study so far.

This doesn't conclude that it is superior to a non religious lateral.
It concludes that, so far, we haven't seen any neurological negative impact from the rituals.

I don't know if anyone has ran a study to compare religious ritual against non-religious techniques.
My guess is that such a study has yet to be conducted since, at this point, we're in the very early years of the new field of spiritual neuroscience and are currently more focused on collecting enough data to create a general field baseline for religious ritual neurologically.

The damaging aspect is the adoption of false explanations where true explanations are available. Carrying around an internal representation of reality which varies significantly from the external reality in which one must daily make one's way is likely to lead to trouble sooner or later.

This would depend on the specific individual's psychology, neurology, and personal beliefs held.
This isn't a given to the entire range of social behavior in humans regarding religion or spirituality.

An athlete whose rituals involve wearing his lucky socks for every game will operate with the same confirmation bias and selective memory as your hypothetical prayer practitioner. Such magical thinking is likely to have negative outcomes eventually.

I don't know.
There's an absence, so far that I'm aware of, of any study to test whether or not holding religious beliefs (any kind) inevidably results in a negative outcome directly related to holding those religious beliefs.

Neurologically, there's so far lacked any indication that there's any negative impact upon the brain.

I wouldn't consider breath awareness meditation to be prayer.

Was there something in that article that suggested to you that this was testing brain changes which resulted from prayer?

The same team discusses prayer in the same light in interviews; off hand I don't know specifically which publication is dedicated to just prayer.
I had a publication on file at one time, but I don't seem to have it anymore that I can find. I'll keep looking around.
That said, however, this snip from a tv show interviews Dr. Newberg.
Here, you can see the description of increased CBF to the frontal lobe regions.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/10/22/this-is-how-your-brain-reacts-during-intense-prayer/

There is a difference, however, between meditation scans and prayer scans.
Prayer scans light up the brain as if the person is having a conversation with a person, while meditation lights up like someone focusing intently upon a critical task.
Both exhibit CBF increase in frontal lobe regions.

Your second paper says that focused attention on a mathematical problem will lead to increased blood flow to the prefrontal cortex.

Yes; focusing on mathematics will radically alter the CBF of an individual as well, but the experience for the individual will understandibly be different in regards to the amygdala (well; in most cases, though it may be possible that for mathematicians who are incredibly devout to math may exhibit similar emotional responses. That would be a good study).

"Thinking about stuff makes blood flow to different areas of the brain. We can see it." How is this an endorsement of prayer?

None of this is an endorsement for or against prayer.

These only show that there is a "power" involved in prayer within the brain, and the effects have so far not been shown to be negative, but instead positive where gauged.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Alright I'm done with the silly word games and the forced semantics.

"Thought" as in the neurological internal functioning of the brain does not and can not have any influence on events outside it. "Thinking things" in and off itself in no way actually increases the chances of said event occurring.

If these thoughts lead to action, that's different.

Period. Anything else is woo no matter what language you try to hide behind to say it.

 

[Navigator]

Hi JasonR

Do you think the measurements you speak of here could be seen as how Consciousness interacts with the human brain?
For example, if the same tests could be done on a brain that was functioning perfectly but the body displayed no signs that Consciousness was there, would the brain display these things independent of Consciousness?

If not, is it not likely then that all such measurements are indicative of Consciousness being that which does these things to the brain, rather than the brain doing these things to itself?

Along the same lines, since these tests show the difference between pretending and being sincere, would you agree this shows that Consciousness is the thing doing the pretending or sincerity, and the brain is simply another device we can use to measure Consciousness with?

Now I realise that the tests done are involving individuals and likely done in enclosed settings, which is quiet common for such things as meditation, prayer etc...i imagine it would be a difficult thing to be able to wire up individuals in more day to day activities and measure brain response, but based on what is already being uncovered in these tests, do you think it possible that there are individuals who are constantly involved in some form of prayer/meditation/state of reverence etc while going about their daily activities and if so, that if they could be remotely monitored that the results would be very similar to those which are done in more enclosed situations?

For example, many years ago when my understanding of prayer/meditation/reverence were more aligned with a particular god concept and well known teaching, dissatisfied with the religious version which had evolved from these things, I embarked on something of a personal mission which involved leaving my normal role within society and walking and hitching around the island I live on, praying for that society.

I could say that some of the impulses which lead me to this decision were reverence and awe and even the need to ‘test my faith’ and I followed the instruction of that which I followed as best I could, for the instruction was that if a person did this thing, they would not be disappointed with the results, which is to say, their faith (in the procedure) would not go unnoticed and they would be provided for.

Part of the instruction was not to take money with you.

So anyway, circumstance had much to do with my finally deciding to do this thing, but from this undertaking I Consciously entered a new way of looking at an old thing, or said another way, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I looked at the same thing differently.

I learned about synchronicity and serendipity – not that I called it that. I called it ‘answer to prayer.’

Now I could share many, many stories regarding that part of my life’s experience, because I did this for many months without money – but sometime even money came my way as part of the process, which was also handy.

Another aspect of this process was that I have never come out of it. Even though I am relatively settled in society and have an income and even though my understanding has evolved in relation to god concepts, consciousness, inside/outside interaction, prayer etc, the things that happened through those days are unfolding as if everything about my life is connected to something Conscious which is more than just my own.
Also, my life before this – major decision – is included in the overall and had everything to do with why I chose to do what I did. I am living a story which is unfolding and I am an interactive player who understands that there is so much more than meets the eye, and I guess in a way I am saying too that this connection you speak of in relation to those tests, is that I don’t have to go into any particular state of Consciousness in order to experience what those tests are finding. It can be done perpetually, not turned off or on as the person requires.

Please be aware, in sharing this I am not making judgments about how other choose to do things or see life. I am simply saying, as best I can right now, that I am experiencing these things in a constant ‘on’ mode, even when I am sleeping – because my dream experiences (those I remember) confirm this...that my understanding of the interactive nature of my experience is also apparent in my dream states.

 

[JaysonR]

Alright I'm done with the silly word games and the forced semantics.

"Thought" as in the neurological internal functioning of the brain does not and can not have any influence on events outside it. "Thinking things" in and off itself in no way actually increases the chances of said event occurring.

If these thoughts lead to action, that's different.

Period. Anything else is woo no matter what language you try to hide behind to say it.

For my part, I wasn't intending to suggest that either meditation or prayer had the ability to affect the external physical world.

 

[Pup]

Participating equally with it is not pretending. Controlling it is pretending.

Participating equally with the environment is also pretending, because humans aren't necessarily equal. If a tornado comes through, you're not going to be able to participate equally with it by using prayer; it'll do what it does, regardless.

Earlier you told us (post #169): "If you want to know if prayer works, learn about what prayer is, the different ways it is expressed (verbal, visualized, intuited, felt etc) and make the effort to discover for yourself as an individual whether there is any co-relation between you the individual and the environment you are involved with in relation to prayer."

JoeBentley summer up the answer, which is no, there's not, unless a person takes action. You could redefine prayer to mean "take action," but after a while, the constant redefining just gets silly, when there are perfectly good words already available.

EDIT: In regard to skeptics having fun etc, that is neither here nor there as those who actually believe they can change the world of wooism and banish it altogether from Human Consciousness are not altogether understanding what it is they are attempting to do. They think they understand, based on what wooism has to say about such things, but they make the mistake of believing wooism is some kind of ultimate authority on such things as Prayer, which is believing in a misrepresentation in the first instance.

Fooled.

And instead, they should believe you're the ultimate authority?

I'm curious who here thinks they can "change the world of wooism and banish it altogether from Human Consciousness." Who has said they believe such a thing is actually possible?

Perhaps someone will step up and say so, but it sounds to me like walking into a soup kitchen, noticing they're trying to feed the hungry, and telling them that they've been fooled into thinking they're some sort of ultimate authority on food distribution but that they're wrong to think they can actually banish hunger altogether from the world.

Before one scolds them, it's best to see if they actually believe that.

Personally I don't think anyone can banish "prayer," with its normal meaning. I certainly don't think anyone can banish it, if it's redefined to mean any sort of good feeling brought on by meditation/ritual/positive-thinking, etc.

Who does?

 

[JaysonR]

Hi JasonR

Do you think the measurements you speak of here could be seen as how Consciousness interacts with the human brain?

Yes.
These are overt actions which require conscious and subconscious interaction.

For example, if the same tests could be done on a brain that was functioning perfectly but the body displayed no signs that Consciousness was there, would the brain display these things independent of Consciousness?

If by consciousness, here, you mean, "awake", then I'm not sure if anyone has done a study of such an instance.

If by consciousness you mean human consciousness in general (as in self-aware consciousness), then there's no possibility of the brain showing something done by overt action of the individual that is separate from consciousness - they are one in the same thing neurologically speaking.

Along the same lines, since these tests show the difference between pretending and being sincere, would you agree this shows that Consciousness is the thing doing the pretending or sincerity, and the brain is simply another device we can use to measure Consciousness with?

Neurologically speaking, there's no such distinction in the language that annotates a concept for this kind of idea; either in support or denial.
We have brains and we observe the brains under different circumstances, and currently our self-aware consciousness is considered to be produced and facilitated by our brain; that without the brain, consciousness ceases to exist.

This is the neurological understanding.

Now I realise that the tests done are involving individuals and likely done in enclosed settings, which is quiet common for such things as meditation, prayer etc...i imagine it would be a difficult thing to be able to wire up individuals in more day to day activities and measure brain response, but based on what is already being uncovered in these tests, do you think it possible that there are individuals who are constantly involved in some form of prayer/meditation/state of reverence etc while going about their daily activities and if so, that if they could be remotely monitored that the results would be very similar to those which are done in more enclosed situations?

That is the holy grail of neurology, actually.
There's allot of interest in developing a field capable fMRI style setup.
I can't answer your question because your question requires an actual inquiry that so far lacks being conducted due to technological limitations.

For example, many years ago when my understanding of prayer/meditation/reverence were more aligned with a particular god concept and well known teaching, dissatisfied with the religious version which had evolved from these things, I embarked on something of a personal mission which involved leaving my normal role within society and walking and hitching around the island I live on, praying for that society.

I could say that some of the impulses which lead me to this decision were reverence and awe and even the need to ‘test my faith’ and I followed the instruction of that which I followed as best I could, for the instruction was that if a person did this thing, they would not be disappointed with the results, which is to say, their faith (in the procedure) would not go unnoticed and they would be provided for.

Part of the instruction was not to take money with you.

So anyway, circumstance had much to do with my finally deciding to do this thing, but from this undertaking I Consciously entered a new way of looking at an old thing, or said another way, the eyes of my understanding were opened, and I looked at the same thing differently.

While there's much in this anacdote that I can't appropriately remark on neurologically, one thing we do know is that chronic prayer and meditation does alter the neurological paths in the brain.
As such, the idea that you are referring to of prayer altering your perception of a thing observed is conceptually possible.
However, if it was an acute instance (meaning, the time between observation A and B of object X was short, rather than long), then I would suggest that the affect was possibly a psychological change that may have been prompted by a neurological deviation during prayer.

Meaning, humans worry as a tool to work out a solution to a problem.
We can continue worrying about the same thing while yet shifting our neurological states (can worry over the same thing while sleeping, driving, working, having sex, praying, meditating, playing games, etc...), so it may be possible that the praying (which your brain would be use to a certain neurological CBF arrangement in unique to that behavior for you) altered the neurological process used to worry and work out a solution for the object in question (sort of like switching the rail on a train track to deviate the processing of the thought to a different region of the brain than in non-prayer states).

Now I could share many, many stories regarding that part of my life’s experience, because I did this for many months without money – but sometime even money came my way as part of the process, which was also handy.

Another aspect of this process was that I have never come out of it. Even though I am relatively settled in society and have an income and even though my understanding has evolved in relation to god concepts, consciousness, inside/outside interaction, prayer etc, the things that happened through those days are unfolding as if everything about my life is connected to something Conscious which is more than just my own.
Also, my life before this – major decision – is included in the overall and had everything to do with why I chose to do what I did. I am living a story which is unfolding and I am an interactive player who understands that there is so much more than meets the eye, and I guess in a way I am saying too that this connection you speak of in relation to those tests, is that I don’t have to go into any particular state of Consciousness in order to experience what those tests are finding. It can be done perpetually, not turned off or on as the person requires.

The only thing I could offer on this is that you may have reduced your parietal lobe processing enough to reduce or remove the impression of separation between yourself and "other"; this then could have made an emotional impact into your amygdala and that strong impression may continually re-trigger that neurological state of reduced parietal lobe activity when assessing your own identity.

If such were to occur, then to you; there would appear a very clear and obvious reality of connected consciousness while others whom you interact with would not understand the imperatives of the descriptions that you offer due to their brains not having the same emotionally triggered reduction in their parietal lobe when their brain references their self identity.

 

[Navigator]

Thanks for that JasonR

I appreciate you interacting with me and your understanding that I am trying to express something in a way that you might understand and that you are doing likewise.

I have more questions to do with Consciousness, Subconciousness and the Brain.

One question now though, is when you say “I” as an identity of Self, are you referring to the brain, consciousness, subconciousness, all three in congruity, or aspects of all three which you understand based on information you know already to be true, even that it may be incomplete and an ongoing study?