The Power of Prayer.

[Navigator]

Confirmation bias. You remember all the time the magic happens, and don't remember all the times it doesn't. If there is a god, and he's got this perfect plan, what sense does it for that god to become your servant, willing to change the universe to fit YOUR particular whims any time you feel like it?

"To heck with the plan. I've got another old lady praying for a Mercedes Benz."

#EDIT: Just to be fair, there's exactly the same amount of evidence that praying to Zeus, or Thor, or Shiva, or a plate full of brussel sprouts "doesn't work" in that context.

You haven't read this thread now have you Earl?
If you have, then why are you making this argument to me? It makes little sense.

 

[Mister Earl]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've got the impression that you're suggesting that prayer does something more than just a personal placebo effect. You say prayer "works". Ok, fine. Works in what context? Can you be specific?

 

[Navigator]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've got the impression that you're suggesting that prayer does something more than just a personal placebo effect. You say prayer "works". Ok, fine. Works in what context? Can you be specific?

You would like me to be specific in regards to 'what I think prayer is' (in relation to me and how I use it) and perhaps give an example from personal experience Earl?

 

[tsig]

If prayer actually worked, the population of the world would jump up by about a fifth overnight. Barren women would suddenly have children, and every teenaged boy would suddenly be living with a playboy model.

There would be a lot of dead people.

I pray for X to happen and you pray for Y, who wins? The most sincere?

 

[tsig]

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here, but I've got the impression that you're suggesting that prayer does something more than just a personal placebo effect. You say prayer "works". Ok, fine. Works in what context? Can you be specific?

You would like me to be specific in regards to 'what I think prayer is' (in relation to me and how I use it) and perhaps give an example from personal experience Earl?

Answering one of these "?" with one of these "?" is usually considered a sign of bad faith argument.

Your post leads me to the conclusion that you wish to dodge the question or are unable to understand a simple interrogative sentence.

 

[Navigator]

Answering one of these "?" with one of these "?" is usually considered a sign of bad faith argument.

Your post leads me to the conclusion that you wish to dodge the question or are unable to understand a simple interrogative sentence.

Are you sure about that tsig?

Could another explanation be that I am simply trying to clarify?

Okay - I will try to get to the same point, by this:

Earl.

I am happy to provide specifics in regards to 'what I think prayer is' (in relation to me and how I use it) and perhaps give an example from personal experience, if this is what you are asking of me.

 

[JaysonR]

Navigator;

Are you positioning 'prayer' practices as psychological feedback systems that implant implicit imperatives into the subconscious which increase the chances of cognitive acquisition?

 

[Apology]

When the American Revolution ended, did the British lose because they didn't pray hard enough? Did the Confederacy lose the civil war similarly? The same question could be asked of either World War. Similarly, did the Vietnam war end in a draw because both sides were praying equally? It's not a wild presumption to think that in any war, both sides have many people who are praying fervently for victory, and the winning side usually credits God in some way when they win.

Is it correct to assume that prayer sans deity is equivalent to a form of positive thinking? Because we have no reason to believe that positive thinking works either. Being positive rather than negative does seem to affect a person's overall enjoyment of life, so it does have that single advantage.

 

[Navigator]

Navigator;

Are you positioning 'prayer' practices as psychological feedback systems that implant implicit imperatives into the subconscious which increase the chances of cognitive acquisition?

JaysonR

If I understand your Q you are asking?:

"Am I Suggesting that internal dialog etc to do with the individual, inclusive of Conscious/Subconscious interaction and subjective experience interacts with the outside reality in a way that suggest the outside aspect is able to display patterns reminiscent of intelligence..."

then yes, I am.

 

[Explorer]

No!

THUS, the power of plain old delusional superstition prevails.

 

[Navigator]

When the American Revolution ended, did the British lose because they didn't pray hard enough? Did the Confederacy lose the civil war similarly? The same question could be asked of either World War. Similarly, did the Vietnam war end in a draw because both sides were praying equally? It's not a wild presumption to think that in any war, both sides have many people who are praying fervently for victory, and the winning side usually credits God in some way when they win.

Is it correct to assume that prayer sans deity is equivalent to a form of positive thinking? Because we have no reason to believe that positive thinking works either. Being positive rather than negative does seem to affect a person's overall enjoyment of life, so it does have that single advantage.

Hi Apology

I think the problem here is that 'prayer' is viewed only from one perspective of which is provably erroneous but nonetheless has had a very great influence on minds as to HOW prayer is supposed to work.

That single advantage you speak of might well be more powerful that we all realize and one reason perhaps why Religion got its hands on it and reigned it in in order to control it and regulate it so that it might not advantage the user but those who controlled the users.
Then it was just a matter of getting the user to focus on the negative.

 

[Navigator]

No!

THUS, the power of plain old delusional superstition prevails.

Yes!

That's what I have been saying too!

The Power Of Prayer.

 

[Explorer]

Yes!

That's what I have been saying too!

The Power Of Prayer.

Why call it prayer at all then?

It is no more significant or dignified than carrying a rabbit's foot, or keeping one's fingers crossed.

Call it what is, and that is simply superstitious thoughts and mutterings that have no value apart from the relief of unecessary and self induced worry, if one omits to fulfil the rituals, or alternatively, the false hope of a desired magical outcome, if one does.

Hardly "power", but more analagous to nictoine or alcohol addiction.

 

[zeggman]

THUS, the power of plain old delusional superstition prevails.

Yes!

That's what I have been saying too!

The Power Of Prayer.

But how can it be known that those [plain old delusional superstition]s did not contribute to the eventuality of more and more refined technology as a way of ‘answer’?
Something else to consider is that some Memes have it within their constitution that [plain old delusional superstition] alone is not sufficient (rather than not required) – and that working toward helping the [plain old delusional superstition] request with personally energy is also required...

One such kind of [plain old delusional superstition] has been mentioned. World Peace. End to Famine. These types of [plain old delusional superstition]s have been going on since ancient times, and could be seen by the believer to be part and parcel of ‘request’ ([plain old delusional superstition]) and ‘answer’ (perhaps not even in the [plain old delusional superstious person's] lifetime.)

So ‘wishful thinking’ cannot be understood as ‘[plain old delusional superstition]’ although some might think so.

Sure, that's what he was saying.

 

[Navigator]

Why call it prayer at all then?

It is no more significant or dignified than carrying a rabbit's foot, or keeping one's fingers crossed.

Call it what is, and that is simply superstitious thoughts and mutterings that have no value apart from the relief of unecessary and self induced worry, if one omits to fulfil the rituals, or alternatively, the false hope of a desired magical outcome, if one does.

Hardly "power", but more analagous to nictoine or alcohol addiction.

Yes - sometimes it would more apt to call aspects of it 'cursing' rather than praying, but the 'power' part is still relevant in relation to even the power these aspects have over the minds of billions, but it isn't all negative or projected onto religious figures and memes.

 

[dlorde]

As far as I can make out from the vague and ambiguous responses the OP has given to simple, direct questions, the 'power of prayer' is the influence it has over the believer's mind (or believers' minds).

In other words, wishful thinking and confirmation bias together comfort the credulous, and the OP counts himself among these.

I'll alert the media, hold the front page...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Why call it prayer at all then?

Really how many times have we had this exact same discussion here?

Step 1: Take religious/psuedoscientific/woo concept.
Step 2: Expand it beyond it's definition to shoe-horn a thematically related but objectively different concept.
Step 3: Try to get people to admit that the woo concept is accurate based on your goalpost moved definition.
Steph 4: Now use this to declare the original woo correct.

Yet another exciting round of silly word games.

 

[zeggman]

As far as I can make out from the vague and ambiguous responses the OP has given to simple, direct questions, the 'power of prayer' is the influence it has over the believer's mind (or believers' minds).

In other words, wishful thinking and confirmation bias together comfort the credulous, and the OP counts himself among these.

When I quantified the memefication quotient with the guanological constant in order to make it consistent with the conscious/subconscious interaction of the dupified, I came to embrace a similar conclusion.

Or at least I had no reason to doubt it.

 

[Navigator]

As far as I can make out from the vague and ambiguous responses the OP has given to simple, direct questions, the 'power of prayer' is the influence it has over the believer's mind (or believers' minds).

In other words, wishful thinking and confirmation bias together comfort the credulous, and the OP counts himself among these.

I'll alert the media, hold the front page...

Alert yourself would suffice dlorde.

It is indeed 'belief systems' which prompt acts of prayer.

Take the Atheist belief that if they can create a movement which will snowball into something they wish to achieve - like educating those who believe in woo-stuff to change the way they think in order to convert that individual to become an Atheist and contribute to the cause of getting rid of woo-ism. The same processes are involved, and the only significant difference is that Atheists do not ask for the help of some invisible god-concept to achieve this wishful thing.

But they do nonetheless display similar wooishness associated with belief hope and and ideals which are not altogether based on the facts, and without a clear understanding of the facts, they have their job cut out for them.

Not that I am necessarily suggesting that absolutely EVERY Atheist is interested in putting their support into helping eradicate wooism from the Collective Human Consciousness, but I acknowledge that there is a movement focused on some hope in achieving this result.

 

[Dissolution]

You're confusing hopes and aspirations with magic, for some reason, Navigator.

Someone hoping that getting the right qualifications will help them to get a job that they want is not doing the same thing as someone praying that they'll get that job.