The Oklahoma City Bombing Coverup

[Huntster]

...You have completely missed Bikewer's point. The opinion was expressed in the OP that additional explosives pre-planted inside the building would have been required in order to cause that level of damage.

Whoops!

Sorry.

 

[rwguinn]

Ah, but gravity is only a theory, not a fact.

You owe me a keyboard!

 

[J. Arthur Hastur]

The common thread in all this is that I have researched this stuff and know what Im talking and most of you simple do not.

Let's see what YOU know:

1.) Both the U of W bomb and the Murrah Building bombs were 2,000LB ANFO Bombs - FALSE The Murrah building bomb was according to FEMA 4,000-5,000LB ANFO , the equivalent of 20,000LBS of TNT according to National Defence.

2.) The picture you showed is the U of W building after the blast, with only scorch marks - FALSE the picture you show is after reconstruction, with the destroyed delivery ramp removed and the access to the building remodeled.

3.) There were no ATF or FBI agents in the Murrah building at the time of McVeighs bombing - FALSE court papers state that 11 federal agents of the ATF and FBI DIED in the blast.

4.) Your transcripts of emergency responders from a single questionable news source - I won't even waste my time looking until you answer why your fantastic and in depth research omitted the previous and obvious errors that could be uncovered with a Google search.

You have show that you do not have any idea what you ae talking about, and merely regurgitating conspiracy theories that you've found on the web.

 

[Manny]

You've refuted nothing....

The following entries from the Oklahoma Highway Patrol’s radio dispatch logs:

You keep printing that. I don't think anyone has disputed that OCFD and others believed that they had found additional bombs at or around the Murrah Center. But that doesn't mean that they did find bombs.

You're correct that not knowing what happened to any alleged bombs does not mean that they don't exist. But do you realize what you're doing here? That person from OCFD. That dispatcher. That OHP officer. Those are people, Rox. And you're accusing them of treason. Of conspiracy to mass murder. And you have no evidence except a transcript which indicate that they thought the found bombs. Just like you're accusing the surviving FDNY members and everyone else who worked Ground Zero after 9-11 of conspiring in the murder of 343 of their brothers, fathers, and sons. How can you do that on such flimsy "evidence?" Do you have no regard for the humanity of these people at all?

 

[Manny]

3.) There were no ATF or FBI agents in the Murrah building at the time of McVeighs bombing - FALSE court papers state that 11 federal agents of the ATF and FBI DIED in the blast.

For the record, according to the indictment , there were at least four Secret Service agents, one DEA agent, two Customs agents and an OIG from HUD killed in the Murrah terrorist bombing. There may be others -- the indictment covers only 160 of the people killed there that day.

 

[J. Arthur Hastur]

For the record, according to the indictment , there were at least four Secret Service agents, one DEA agent, two Customs agents and an OIG from HUD killed in the Murrah terrorist bombing. There may be others -- the indictment covers only 160 of the people killed there that day.

Hmm, the .pdf I found listed eleven 'federal agents' and qualified them as ATF and FBI, doesen't break down the numbers. That's why I was listing that as 'specious', because I wasn't certain.

The CT people would be easier to refute if the government wasn't so ham-fisted with documentation

 

[Huntster]

Did anyone catch the Nick Berg/Moussaoui tie when Mr. Berg lost his head?:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

Some investigators contend that Timothy McVeigh and his accomplice Terry Nichols had ties to Islamic terrorism through Ramzi Yousef, a militant who planned the 1993 WTC Bombing, and through a series of meetings with Islamic terror group Abu Sayyaf members in the Philippines.

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/gregory.php?articleid=2582

The most recent, and possibly most bizarre, development in this mystery is the enigmatic pre-9/ll connection between Berg and al Qaeda. News has just broken that the FBI had investigated Berg in 2002, because his e-mail password had been found in the possession of Zacarias Moussaoui, who had been arrested shortly before September 11. According to Berg’s father, U.S. authorities determined during the investigation that Moussaoui got the password when Berg carelessly let Moussaoui use his computer after they met on a bus.
Some have theorized that perhaps this completely coincidental incident is what inspired FBI agents to question Berg while he was in Iraqi custody, but now that Berg is thought to have been detained at the FBI’s request, we have a more likely explanation for the visits.
So far, the U.S. government has shed very little light on the surreal Moussaoui coincidence.

Where did this “coincidental” exchange between Berg and Moussaoui occur?
In Oklahoma. Moussaoui was reportedly trying to hack into the University of Oklahoma system by using Berg's email.

 

[Huntster]

Ah-ha! I found this, according to the Federal Charges against Timothy McVeigh he was charged with the murder of 11 Federal Agents from both the ATF and FBI, along with his other charges of using a weapon of mass destruction and other murder counts.............

Link, please?

 

[chipmunk stew]

You keep printing that. I don't think anyone has disputed that OCFD and others believed that they had found additional bombs at or around the Murrah Center. But that doesn't mean that they did find bombs.

You're correct that not knowing what happened to any alleged bombs does not mean that they don't exist. But do you realize what you're doing here? That person from OCFD. That dispatcher. That OHP officer. Those are people, Rox. And you're accusing them of treason. Of conspiracy to mass murder. And you have no evidence except a transcript which indicate that they thought the found bombs. Just like you're accusing the surviving FDNY members and everyone else who worked Ground Zero after 9-11 of conspiring in the murder of 343 of their brothers, fathers, and sons. How can you do that on such flimsy "evidence?" Do you have no regard for the humanity of these people at all?

Here are some recordings of news reports from that day that one of the Loosers had posted:
http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc.ram
http://www.apfn.org/audio/okc2.ram

I haven't seen subsequent news stories to see whether or not these reports were retracted. With that as an unknown, I can think of at least four reasons for this story of multiple bombs:

• There were more bombs planted by an inside co-conspirator, and there was a cover-up.
• There were more bombs planted by McVeigh or an outside co-conspirator, but not inside the building or in an accessible part of the building, but since they were disarmed, the story receded as the news focused on the aftermath.
• There were bombs or something that looked like bombs in the building for innocuous purposes (ATF evidence, or something).
• There were something that looked like bombs that were destroyed as a precaution, but it turned out that they weren't bombs at all.

These were just rattled off the top of my head. I'm sure there are other possibilities, too. The investigator truly interested in the truth would try to contact those law enforcement officials as well as the news organizations that reported on the multiple bombs and try to dig up the real story. He wouldn't eat up the conclusions of CT documentaries and CT websites and then accuse all sorts of people of treason.

 

[Gravy]

Let's take a look at what really happened at the Murrah building.

Do reports of "additional explosives found" appear in some official documents in the IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH of the bombing? Yes, they do.

"Ooh, that's damning!"
Don't get excited. The CTers leave out a few details.

"So what are those reports about?"
Bomb scares. The scares were quickly cleared and rescue work resumed. No bombs or other explosives were found.

"Then what WAS removed from the site? Lots of eyewitnesses saw things being taken away by the bomb squads."
Dummy explosives used by the BATF for training exercises, and a shoulder-mounted TOW missile launcher, still in its shipping case, with an INERT warhead and a small amount of solid propellant.

"What? A missile launcher? See, I told you those government bastards were up to something!"
Yeah, they were up to catching criminals. The missile was to be used in a "buy-and-bust" arms-purchasing sting operation.

I'm getting pretty sick of reading about CTers disparaging first responders who are doing exactly what they're supposed to do. Here, a typically classy CTer calls OK City police and fire dept. bomb squads "stupid."

Note that the reports of additional bombs are confirmed by the fire department. The suggestion that the bombs found in the Murrah Building were just practice bombs requires that the trained experts of the police and fire department bomb squads be too stupid to know real explosives from fake.

But it gets better. The trained experts of the police and fire department bomb squads used trained explosives sniffing dogs to locate those additional bombs, so not only did the devices found in the Murrah Building have to look enough like real bombs to fool the bomb squad, they had to SMELL LIKE REAL EXPLOSIVES TO THE BOMB SNIFFING DOGS!

Uh, yeah, that's sort of the point of practice explosives. If they didn't smell like explosives, dogs would have a pretty tough time sniffing them out, wouldn't they, Einstein?

And does this intellectual giant want us to believe that the fire department and police bomb squads should have looked at those devices and said, "Nah, don't worry about those"??? They shouldn't have ASSUMED that these could be dangerous devices and taken EVERY precaution to ensure the public's safety???

More info on the bomb scares:

A minimum of two subsequent "bomb scares" forced the evacuation of these personnel. The evacuation of the structure allowed officials to create a controlled perimeter around the dangerous site. Rescue workers were not allowed to re-enter the site until confirmation was given that no additional explosive devices were located.

1015: ODCEM Forward Operations reports a "bomb scare" at the site, resulting in the relocation of the Incident Command Post (ICP) to the southwest corner of N.W. 8th St. and Harvey Avenue.

10:28 a.m. - Rescuers find what they think is a second bomb. All rescuers are ordered to leave the building, and police clear a four-block area around the building. Police take this opportunity to establish a firm perimeter so they can allow only qualified rescuers back in the building.

11:22 a.m. - The bomb squad reports that there is no second bomb. The suspected bombs were simulators used in training.

Fiinal inspection, April 22: "The 61st Explosive Ordnance Disposal Unit completes inspection of the bomb site. No additional explosive devices are found." Source Source

Here are some excerpts from the report of the Rescue Operations Chief on the site:

The first bomb scare, at approximately 10:30 a.m., gave us an opportunity to get control of the incident, and we did.

After the operational delay caused by the bomb scare at 10:30 a.m., we rotated 75 personnel in and out of the building.

We had not been back to work very long when another bomb threat evacuation was ordered. We were getting a little tired of this start-stop routine. So we went over to look at the “bomb,” which turned out to be a shoulder-carried missile that was still in its wooden box, as shipped. (With federal law enforcement agencies occupying parts of the building, it was not unusual to find weapons, etc. in the debris.) There wasn’t much to it. Most personnel vacated the building and went only across the street to the post office, awaiting the all-clear. We were out of the building for only a few minutes.

After the second bomb scare evacuation, we resumed our primary searches unimpeded throughout the afternoon and into the night. Source

Report on OK City seismic data by the American Geophysical Union

"Second explosion" CT seismic theory debunked (Article contains a typo, should read 4,800 lbs, not 48,000.)

CTers "research" time: 11 years.
Gravy's "research" time: 45 minutes.

(Edited to point out that CTers have been promoting their swill since 1995, and to add AGU link. Additional "research" time: 5 minutes.)

 

[dissonance]

I don't see how multiple agencies referring to more bombs proves anything - for all we know, they all got their information from the same source and were simply repeating what they'd been told and thought, at the time, was trustworthy. Happens all the time in distasters. A questionable report is made, gets repeated, and eventually you've got all sorts of people confirming the event all based on one not necessarily credible report.

 

[chipmunk stew]

I don't see how multiple agencies referring to more bombs proves anything - for all we know, they all got their information from the same source and were simply repeating what they'd been told and thought, at the time, was trustworthy. Happens all the time in distasters. A questionable report is made, gets repeated, and eventually you've got all sorts of people confirming the event all based on one not necessarily credible report.

Or miscommunicated. Remember a certain mine explosion not too long ago?

(edited to add link)

 

[dissonance]

Exactly - I was trying to think of an example. I know there were lots of things said by the media during Katrina that later turned out to be exagerations or outright wrong, but at the time seemed to be confirmed by multiple sources.

 

[senorpogo]

"Research" time: 45 minutes.

45 minutes well spent. Nice work Gravy!

 

[Bronze Dog]

"Research" time: 45 minutes.

Encore! Encore!

 

[Bikewer]

I'm not familiar with the radio traffic from the concerned police units in this case, but being in the biz myself it is standard procedure to be aware of, and to check for "secondary" (and even tertiary) explosives, designed specifically to cause casualties among first responders and rescue personel.

Traffic from commanders to be aware of or to search for additional "devices" would have been standard operating procedure, and may, to the layman, have sounded like evidence that there were, in fact, such devices.

 

[Z]

We heard an awful lot about what was going on in OKC that day - one of my best friends was formerly in the same demo unit that McVeigh was in, and when the Murrah building went off, he was yanked - out of the field - and questioned for hours.

As it turns out, there were also about a half-dozen phone-in bomb threats after the attack, and each one had to be treated seriously.

Meanwhile, where we were (Ft. Bragg, NC), there were three minor bomb scares the same day - all of which turned out to be trainer weapons, empty casings, etc. - all in our own area.

It happens - people make mistakes. And sites like 'New American' have a terrible habit of cherry-picking data and discarding the truly relevant parts.

conspiracybeliever, you been schooled YET AGAIN.

I'd give up, Rox. You just don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Gravy]

A secret admirer sent me a theme song! It's a keeper.

Gravy's Theme

If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time
I'll do some straight debunkin', elucidate your crimes
lay your claims on up here, I'll knock em down in line
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

There ain't no need to fear me, if you've got it right
stack all your evidence 'gainst mine, and we'll let 'em fight
I'll be your pers'nal Ipecac, soon you'll be feelin' fine
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

Your bull will be castrated, when Gravy is around
I'll be your spark within the dark, my facts will you confound
If you run short of logic, I'll lend you some of mine
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time

If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time
How long have you been at this? I just started tryin'
You'll bid adieu to all your woo, but not without some cryin'
If you've got the CT honey, I've got the time​

Ipecac!

 

[CptColumbo]

I'm sorry I don't have broadband and can't do searches very easily, and therefore have no links to anything.

I seem to remember when Bush Sr. quit the NRA, over the "Jackboot" circular they sent out, he named a few agents who died at OKC. I believe they were FBI agents, but someone who can get pages to come up faster than 20 minutes can search for it.

As far as CTs go, one should examine all the evidence and let that lead you to a conclusion. Don't have a conclusion and make the evidence fit it.

 

[Ducky]

In Oklahoma. Moussaoui was reportedly trying to hack into the University of Oklahoma system by using Berg's email.

1) To what end? What does the University of Oaklahoma have on its "system" that is of need to Moussaoui? What information did he need that isn't readily available to the public?

2) It's a public university. Chances are there are much easier ways to get onto the computer network than attempting to "hack an email account."

3) How exactly do you hack into a large WAN of a university by using an email account? At best it gives you access to simply an email account.

The contention is specious for two reasons:

1) Knowing a bit about computer/network security it seems implausible anyone would attempt to access information from a network such as OU by using an email account.

2) There's no need to hack anything. There is no conceivable information that isn't publicly available otherwise or easily obtained by walking to the university's library or computer lab.