Moderated The NYPD and Molten Concrete

[Sabretooth]

Has anyone pointed out to yankee (who obviously has me on ignore) that the steel doesn't have to be "cut" by the wings? The force only has to break the weak points, not slice it like salami.

 

[thedopefishlives]

Has anyone pointed out to yankee (who obviously has me on ignore) that the steel doesn't have to be "cut" by the wings? The force only has to break the weak points, not slice it like salami.

What weak points? Steel is obviously harder than aluminum, therefore inside job.

 

[Trifikas]

So, wait...

Why worry about the Density of the objects? Force = MASS x Acceleration, not Density X whatever. For the support to resist the impact, it has to accelerate (well, decelerate. not important.) the plane down to 0 m/s over the time of the impact. The ammount of force it applies to the Plane, the support has to resist as well. For every action, equal and opposite reaction. so regardless of the relative strength of the materials, the same force applies to both objects in the collision.

 

[marplots]

So, wait...

Why worry about the Density of the objects? Force = MASS x Acceleration, not Density X whatever. For the support to resist the impact, it has to accelerate (well, decelerate. not important.) the plane down to 0 m/s over the time of the impact. The ammount of force it applies to the Plane, the support has to resist as well. For every action, equal and opposite reaction. so regardless of the relative strength of the materials, the same force applies to both objects in the collision.

The amount of time during the impact varies with the density of the objects colliding. So you have the same average force, but a less dense object will spread that over a slightly longer time because the object is larger per unit mass.

However, you don't have to look far to see that something still happens. Tim McVeigh destroyed half a building with high velocity air.

I always thought the confusion would go away if collisions could be viewed at the atomic level. Atoms of aluminum and iron hitting each other gives a better picture for me. Neither type of atom is "soft."

 

[LSSBB]

Has anyone pointed out to yankee (who obviously has me on ignore) that the steel doesn't have to be "cut" by the wings? The force only has to break the weak points, not slice it like salami.

I pointed that out to him.

ETA: it's on the No Planer Calls for Scientific Study thread.

 

[Redwood]

Originally Posted by Redwood

Steve, please enlighten poor ignoramuses such as AJM and me how a putative lack of a Dun & Bradstreet rating shows that firms such as Union Bank of California, Oppenheimer Funds, or AT&T did not have actual offices in the Twin Towers. You were the one who brought it up, remember?

Obviously, if it proves these firms don't really exist, you win. If they do exist, and you can't explain how a lack of a Dun & Bradstreet listing proves they didn't have offices in the Twin Towers, you can ask your soulmate "Steve WarRan" to explain it for you.

Brilliant. We share the same first name, so we're obviously the same person. I linked to a document of his, so now I espouse everything he's ever written and should answer for his work because, after all, we're named Steve.

Steve, I didn't say you and "Steve WarRan" were one and the same person. If you aren't, then you have found a soulmate. You are both at the apex of trutherism, posting Mt. Everest-sized non-sequiturs. Any other gibberish that "Steve WarRan" may have written is irrelevant. What is relevant is the particular piece of gibberish that you freely and willingly quoted. Now will you finally explain to us how does a Dun and Bradstreet listing relate to whether or not a firm had offices in the Twin Towers?, or ask your soulmate to explain it for you, or admit that the whole thing is nonsense?

Like other truthers, you make yourself look foolish by never backing down, never admitting you made a mistake. If you admit that the article by "Steve WarRan" is a giant manure pile, and that it was foolish to cite it, you will not lose one shred of credibility.

 

[Animal]

you will not lose one shred of credibility.

It is difficult to lose something that one never had

 

[Redwood]

Originally Posted by Redwood
you will not lose one shred of credibility.

It is difficult to lose something that one never had

In which case, it's still a break-even!

 

[yankee451]

Steve, I didn't say you and "Steve WarRan" were one and the same person. If you aren't, then you have found a soulmate. You are both at the apex of trutherism, posting Mt. Everest-sized non-sequiturs. Any other gibberish that "Steve WarRan" may have written is irrelevant. What is relevant is the particular piece of gibberish that you freely and willingly quoted. Now will you finally explain to us how does a Dun and Bradstreet listing relate to whether or not a firm had offices in the Twin Towers?, or ask your soulmate to explain it for you, or admit that the whole thing is nonsense?

Like other truthers, you make yourself look foolish by never backing down, never admitting you made a mistake. If you admit that the article by "Steve WarRan" is a giant manure pile, and that it was foolish to cite it, you will not lose one shred of credibility.

I have already admitted several mistakes and this is another. I stand corrected.

 

[yankee451]

I pointed that out to him.

ETA: it's on the No Planer Calls for Scientific Study thread.

When does the building get to break the weak points on the jet.

 

[TJM]

I have already admitted several mistakes and this is another. I stand corrected.

 

[LSSBB]

When does the building get to break the weak points on the jet.

The moment it hits, parts at a time. Not 100% broken, that took a few whacks as it went through. Momentum carries all of it through anyway, whether all of the parts of the plane are connected or not.

You do understand momentum, don't you? I hope you don't go around cutting in front of trucks on the highway.

Let's say an iceball hits a wide mesh, and the ice is hard enough to bend and break some of the wires. The iceball breaks in the process though. Would the iceball not go through the mesh, or would the pieces continue on past? What if the iceball was hollow in some places, but hard and moving really fast. The pieces would still go through the mesh, if the iceball was moving fast enough.

Hopefully you can understand the metaphor above, and not get all hung up on ice vs. Mesh strength, etc. It's really a question of energy vs. Shear strength. Enough energy, the column shears. What is left of the wing doesn't stop there. If there is remaining energy, it keeps going, until all of it is spent. At some point it isn't a whole plane, it's fragments with their own energy. Anything left goes shooting out the other side of the building.

And that matches what video, witnesses and models have all shown. You know, that pesky evidence you want to go away. Real people who saw real things. Real people who's remains were found afterwards, who were on the planes. Real plane parts, that match the plane inventory and have radar data tracking them all the way back to their point of origin.

 

[yankee451]

It's good to know you guys are working so hard to keep me honest, I'm not in this game to be right, but to learn the truth and I appreciate your perspectives. This is the closest thing to a peer review I am going to get, so thank you.

So back to the really hot fires.

Rumors of fires so intense they could melt steel were started by the FDNY, NYPD, FEMA, etc. and were continued by the Truth Movement. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me why they would all be singing the same song. The theme was the same everywhere for the first few years, everyone was talking about the molten steel, the dust, the missing debris.

everything from molten steel beams to human remains
http://waste360.com/mag/waste_dday_ny_sanitation

These rumors came from the authorities, as seeen in this video:
http://911conspiracy.wordpress.com/2010/01/24/molten-steel-extreme-temperatures-at-wtc/

The media, the authorities, and the "Truth Movement" all singing the same tune until today when virtually everyone takes for granted the towers fell because of really hot fires. But there weren't any.

I may have fallen for Steve WarRan's false lead about Dun and Bradstreet, but that doesn't mean the buildings were fully occupied, it just means I need to be more careful. I've been corrected on a few things already, so don't stop now.

If the buildings were fully occupied, where are the floors to the left and right of the hole? Where is the raging inferno of office material on the nonexistent floors?, and even if a jet could do such a thing, in order to bend the panels like that, they couldn't have been backed by three acres of concrete each. I stand corrected on Dun and Bradstreet. Where are the floors?

 

[fess]

The media, the authorities, and the "Truth Movement" all singing the same tune until today when virtually everyone takes for granted the towers fell because of really hot fires. But there weren't any.

Really?

If the buildings were fully occupied, where are the floors to the left and right of the hole? Where is the raging inferno of office material on the nonexistent floors?, and even if a jet could do such a thing, in order to bend the panels like that, they couldn't have been backed by three acres of concrete each. I stand corrected on Dun and Bradstreet. Where are the floors?

[qimg]http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Center-hole-missing-floors-.jpg[/qimg]

The lightweight flooring material and lightweight trusses were destroyed during the impact

 

[yankee451]

Really?
[qimg]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff72/fess_1/911/111WTCNorthTower.jpg[/qimg]

[qimg]http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff72/fess_1/911/WTC_on_fire9.jpg[/qimg]



The lightweight flooring material and lightweight trusses were destroyed during the impact

The trusses went wall to core.

The jet's fuselage was about 17 feet wide and after the cockpit was creamed against the steel the hollow tube of the fuselage and it's contents was hardly a battering ram, and even if it was it was only 17 feet wide. And hollow.

So not only does the hollow fuselage damage the dense steel (is it the air pressure inside the cabin that gives it density?), it also damages an area twice its diameter and wipes out three acres of concrete, even thought it woudn't have touched most of the trusses.

There are no bodies hanging in the hole, no desks piled up, no filing cabinets or cubicles, no doors or office partitions, or any window coverings visible in the hole. Nothing but building and nothing that could be identified as a truss or a concrete floor slab.

It's remarkable how powerful your jet is, truly. It's amazing we spend a million dollars a pop on missiles when just a few 767s could have wiped out Tripoli.

 

[LSSBB]

There are no bodies hanging in the hole, no desks piled up, no filing cabinets or cubicles, no doors or office partitions, or any window coverings visible in the hole. Nothing but building and nothing that could be identified as a truss or a concrete floor slab.

Why should there have been? A plane just bulldozed it's way in.

 

[yankee451]

Why should there have been? A plane just bulldozed it's way in.

A bulldozer would have had better luck but even it wouldn't have wiped out a whole floor. Trusses were parallel to the impact trajectory and the jet wasn't a bulldozer, it was well, a hollow tube 17 feet wide. You saying the first class passengers wiped out the concrete?

 

[Travis]

The floors were lightweight concrete poured over a very lightweight truss system. That they would be destroyed is not even something you can pretend away.


Oh and where did you get this idea about the FDNY talking about molten steel?

 

[LSSBB]

The floors were lightweight concrete poured over a very lightweight truss system. That they would be destroyed is not even something you can pretend away.


Oh and where did you get this idea about the FDNY talking about molten steel?

Hoo hoo, molten steel.

12 Threads on the subject:

Molten Steel VS Molten metal at GZ....
So there was melted steel
Cotton melts steel!
Today's XKCD: Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel
Debris removal specialist: Richard riggs saw melted beams, molten steel
Merged: Molten metal observations
Truthers: Why didn't the Hindenburg's steel melt?
Is a Kerosene blaze hot enough to melt steel?
Split Thread: Molten steel at the WTC towers
Motlen Steel - Continuation
Molten Steel
Melting steel

Amount of material analyzed in a lab and determined to be molten steel: 0

 

[yankee451]

The floors were lightweight concrete poured over a very lightweight truss system. That they would be destroyed is not even something you can pretend away.


Oh and where did you get this idea about the FDNY talking about molten steel?

They were allegedly a lot of things except 'there'.

I am well-versed with the trusses, the dampers and the alleged concrete. They were more than just weight bearing trusses they, were designed to create a diaphram to withstand lateral wind shear equivalent to the impact of an ocean freighter. They kept the tower walls stiff and square. The trusses and concrete floors not damaged by the impact would have stayed-put. And before the big wall panels could have been pushed in like that, the three floors behind it had to have been removed.

http://yankee451.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Spandrels-bent-back-small.jpg

Edited by LashL: 

Changed over-sized image to regular link. Please don't post over-sized images in-thread as they mess with the formatting of the thread.

The FDNY were among those who gave us the molten steel:

You'd get down below and you'd see molten steel, molten steel, running down the channel rails, like you're in a foundry, like lavaEtienne Sauret - Documentary "Collateral Damages" - FDNY Captain Philip Ruvolo

"Even before the twin towers of the World Trade Center fell, Sarah Atlas and her canine partner, Anna, a black-faced German shepherd, were deployed by New Jersey’s Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue. By the end of the day on September 11, they were at Ground Zero, where they stayed for ten days in a fruitless search for survivors.

“The [NYFD] people who called us had been killed,” Atlas considered as she surveyed the tons and acres of wreckage. “Nobody’s going to be alive.” Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet."
Penn Arts & Sciences

People turned to dust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnnXTrw88P4&feature=player_embedded

All BS.