Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

Rolfe said:
... It's even dafter coming from someone from Belgium, of all places.
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Maybe the pure Belgian genome comprises intertwined strands of Flemish and Walloon DNA. They will of course untwine if ever the two regions become separate countries.
 
So what is Rajoy's exit strategy here?

Catalonia can't be the only Spanish region ruled directly from Madrid in perpetuity.

At some point he is going to have to return to them the same degree of autonomy they previously enjoyed.

And what happens then?
 
Hubert Cumberdale said:
So what is Rajoy's exit strategy here?

Catalonia can't be the only Spanish region ruled directly from Madrid in perpetuity.

At some point he is going to have to return to them the same degree of autonomy they previously enjoyed.

And what happens then?
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I suspect it'll be SCW-II
 
I wonder if we're looking at another Brexit where Group A is in a really big hurry to break free of Group B right up until the point it actually happen s and then when the nuts and bolts reality of how to actually go about breaking free on anything resembling a procedural level comes up everybody suddenly finds other stuff to do.
 
For the Franco-German's in the audience...

Well I don't know why I came here tonight
I've got a feelin' that somethin' alt-right
I'm so scared in case it’s all of Austria.
Spain’s to the left of me,
Kosovo’s to the right,
Here I am, stuck in the middle with EU
Yea, I'm stuck in a muddle with U(kraine)
And I'm wonderin' what it is I should do
It's so hard to keep Brexit from a farce
 
catsmate said:
I suspect it'll be SCW-II
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Though it might resemble more the Irish War Of Independence. The setting up of a "shadow Government" seem a logical step by the Catalans.
And the Guardia Civil will end up being the Black and Tans.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Never been tested. EU citizens have never been stripped of their EU citizenship against their will. Opinion is not fact.
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Sure, hasn't Madrid been approaching this in a compassionate and magnanimous manner?

(If Catalonia votes to leave - they will not consider it "stripping their EU citizenship against their will". Or do you think that Brits will get to keep EU citizenship even after Brexit???)
 
Giz said:
Sure, hasn't Madrid been approaching this in a compassionate and magnanimous manner?

(If Catalonia votes to leave - they will not consider it "stripping their EU citizenship against their will". Or do you think that Brits will get to keep EU citizenship even after Brexit???)
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The UK government wants to leave the EU. Does the Catalan?
 
And this is what I've been getting at.

In the modern world where practically all countries belong to dozens (if not hundreds or even thousands) of various international organizations, agreements, committees, etc, what does independence mean the same thing it did a hundred or two hundred or even fifty years ago?

It's not just the EU/EEA/Eurozone/Schagen it's NATO, the UN, countless trade and environmental organizations.
 
dudalb said:
SOrry, but comparing Britex with the Catalan situation is apples and oranges.
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Agreed. But to torture the metaphor a bit any... errr movement of the parts in relation to "countries" is at least... in the fruit aisle.

My broad point is only that most countries, European countries by no means least of all, are all parties to complex international agreements of various kinds, some of which do filter down to the individual citizen level and that is a factor in all this.
 
dudalb said:
Though it might resemble more the Irish War Of Independence. The setting up of a "shadow Government" seem a logical step by the Catalans.
And the Guardia Civil will end up being the Black and Tans.
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The firefighters appear to have pledged allegiance to the Catalan authorities and repudiated Madrid. It is indeed very much like Ireland 1918-1921. But there is one difference. The autonomous Catalan region has its own force in the shape of the Mossos. What will that organisation now do if Madrid goes all Falangist, and the Guardia Civil starts to behave like the "Tans"?

ETA. A Catalan source is referring to
... els Mossos que asseguren que no acataran el 155 i seran fidels al Govern​
They will not obey the 155 and will remain faithful to the Government. Interesting.
 
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dudalb said:
Though it might resemble more the Irish War Of Independence. The setting up of a "shadow Government" seem a logical step by the Catalans.
And the Guardia Civil will end up being the Black and Tans.
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Your analogy of the Guardia Civil with the Black and Tans is wrong, the Guardia Civil would equate with the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Black and Tans were recruited after the onset of violence, after the war had started. They were mostly ex British Army soldiers formed into a special constabulary to provide support to the RIC.

If the Catalan 'government' initiates a war on the Spanish state in the same way that the Irish Republic did on Britain it would be foolish. It is worth remembering the consequence was the Irish Civil war. It is easier to start a fight than to stop it.
 
Planigale said:
Your analogy of the Guardia Civil with the Black and Tans is wrong, the Guardia Civil would equate with the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Black and Tans were recruited after the onset of violence, after the war had started. They were mostly ex British Army soldiers formed into a special constabulary to provide support to the RIC.

If the Catalan 'government' initiates a war on the Spanish state in the same way that the Irish Republic did on Britain it would be foolish. It is worth remembering the consequence was the Irish Civil war. It is easier to start a fight than to stop it.
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Ah yes, Irish republicans initiated a war on Britain. Poor Britain. Occupied and partitioned? The final consequence was not the Civil War, but independence. I see the wicked Irish have established a 'Republic' with a 'Border', which is presenting a problem to poor Brexit Britain. More Irish aggression! Send in the Tans!
 
I just don't get nationalism of this kind. Risk getting cut off from the EU in perpetuity and hostile relations with your major neighbour, all for what? To be able to say "I'm Catalonian"? They can do that now.
 
uke2se said:
I just don't get nationalism of this kind. Risk getting cut off from the EU in perpetuity and hostile relations with your major neighbour, all for what? To be able to say "I'm Catalonian"? They can do that now.
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Even if that's what it is all about, and I don't think that's the whole story; they couldn't say it with impunity, officially in the Catalan language, while Franco was alive. So their right to say it is at the good pleasure of whoever happens to be in charge in Madrid. Their autonomy, indeed, has been rescinded at the present time. Thus, it is highly conditional, not free or absolute.

I'm not sure why peoples seek to be independent, but they do. And once they have attained independence they never seem to want to go back to their previous dependent status, whatever problems they may have.

I don't know where this feeling comes from, and I can understand why someone might not "get it". Perhaps it's a process of developing consciousness; simply something like growing up and wanting to leave home, even if it's a good home. However, the "homes" in which small nations have lived are often not happy ones, but seriously abusive.

The main difference between dependency on another state on one hand, and a parental home on the other, is that the dependent people were not usually "born" as dependents. Often they were violently "adopted" and have a history of repeated abscondence and forced return.
 
JoeBentley said:
CCP Grey has a wonderful Youtube video called "How Many Countries Are There?" and goes into how that's an incredibly hard that seemingly simple question is to answer.

(Yes I know the question was "nation" and not "country" but I'll get there...)

He goes into contested countries like Kosovo, the oddity of Taiwan (*China appears behind him.* "Eeerrr I mean Chinese Taipei. Which is totally not a country and no one would ever think otherwise. *Whispers* Is China gone yet?") and how nothing done in international relations actually make sense unless it is its own country, the impossibility of forming a single objective definition of country that includes Vatican City ("The least country like country that is") but excludes Hong Kong ("The most country like country that isn't") and even the oddity of non-countries having Olympic Teams.

The best answer he can come up with, and it's the best answer to what areas should be countries, is "What makes you a country is whether other countries consider you a country."
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By country we mean a sovereign state and a member of the U.N in its own right [/Osman]
 
Craig B said:
Even if that's what it is all about, and I don't think that's the whole story; they couldn't say it with impunity, officially in the Catalan language, while Franco was alive. So their right to say it is at the good pleasure of whoever happens to be in charge in Madrid. Their autonomy, indeed, has been rescinded at the present time. Thus, it is highly conditional, not free or absolute.

I'm not sure why peoples seek to be independent, but they do. And once they have attained independence they never seem to want to go back to their previous dependent status, whatever problems they may have.

I don't know where this feeling comes from, and I can understand why someone might not "get it". Perhaps it's a process of developing consciousness; simply something like growing up and wanting to leave home, even if it's a good home. However, the "homes" in which small nations have lived are often not happy ones, but seriously abusive.

The main difference between dependency on another state on one hand, and a parental home on the other, is that the dependent people were not usually "born" as dependents. Often they were violently "adopted" and have a history of repeated abscondence and forced return.
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I can understand a people who suffer under opression wanting to free themselves and form their own government, but I just don't see that as the reality when it comes to Catalonia, nor Scotland for that matter. I'm sure there are things that people in Barcelona think Madrid is doing wrong, but I don't believe it's much more than how people in Gothenburg feel about Stockholm, and nobody's talking about an independent Gothia.

I also can't shake the feeling that this is all playing into the hands of a certain Eastern autocrat.
 
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