Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

The thing is, there are always some people playing silly buggers on social media, either just mixing it for the hell of it, or even possibly maliciously to give ammunition to later allegations of "fake news!" But I saw a lot of this as it was coming in, and many cases were attested to by several different films of the same thing. The episode where the woman was thrown downstairs, groped, and had her fingers deliberately broken by the Spanish police was particularly shocking.

I also know a few people who were there as accredited international observers. They are also adamant that the vast majority of the scenes of violence were all too real.
 
Hercules56 said:
I fully agree.

Spain's actions to crush dissent may inspire many more Catalonians to support independence and then it may be too heavy a ship to turn around.
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You are right. But what is a Catalonian - do we have genetic evidence of such people?

A map of Barcelona shows Calle (Carrer in Catalan) de Murcia, d´Allacant etc... These are other Spanish towns and cities. Why?

I may be wrong, but with all the internal migration, breeding etc..(pre and post Franco), what is a pure Catalonian in the first place?
 
I don't think the Catalan independence movement is ethnic/racist.

If the population of an independent country has to be ethnically "pure" to qualify for that status, then there won't be any independent countries on the face of the planet. What the hell is a "pure Belgian" come to that?
 
Belgian thought said:
You are right. But what is a Catalonian - do we have genetic evidence of such people?

A map of Barcelona shows Calle (Carrer in Catalan) de Murcia, d´Allacant etc... These are other Spanish towns and cities. Why?

I may be wrong, but with all the internal migration, breeding etc..(pre and post Franco), what is a pure Catalonian in the first place?
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They have their own language, customs, and history of persecution.

Thats enough to be a nation.
 
Hercules56 said:
They have their own language, customs, and history of persecution.

Thats enough to be a nation.
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Nonsense - hence anybody with a cultural grudge can claim independence?

Newcastle, for example.

People forget that "French" as a language is less than a 130 years old - separating France is the solution?

And as I said they, Catalonians, have bred with outsiders for donkeys

Give me a genetic argument that they are different and not an emotional one please.

Ooh - and Scot separatists, do the same :)
 
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If they are a nation and want to be independent. This shouldn't be dependent on being badly treated by the colonising country, otherwise you just end up with a catalogue of grievance and "no you can't, you're not oppressed enough."

I am totally baffled by this talk of genetic purity as if we were talking about pedigree dogs or something. And from a Belgian, of all people. There's no such thing. Scotland is full of Irish, Italians, Poles, Pakistanis, you name it. Same as everywhere else. It's still Scotland.
 
Rolfe said:
If they are a nation and want to be independent. This shouldn't be dependent on being badly treated by the colonising country, otherwise you just end up with a catalogue of grievance and "no you can't, you're not oppressed enough."

I am totally baffled by this talk of genetic purity as if we were talking about pedigree dogs or something. And from a Belgian, of all people. There's no such thing. Scotland is full of Irish, Italians, Poles, Pakistanis, you name it. Same as everywhere else. It's still Scotland.
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Exactly - so where is the gripe?
 
Okay we separate Catalonia from Spain.

But wait... Catalonia isn't some perfect hegemony. It has significant sub-cultures based on language, religion, ethnic backgrounds.

Well no problem. We'll just split them off into their own countries as well.
 
Belgian thought said:
Define a nation
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CCP Grey has a wonderful Youtube video called "How Many Countries Are There?" and goes into how that's an incredibly hard that seemingly simple question is to answer.

(Yes I know the question was "nation" and not "country" but I'll get there...)

He goes into contested countries like Kosovo, the oddity of Taiwan (*China appears behind him.* "Eeerrr I mean Chinese Taipei. Which is totally not a country and no one would ever think otherwise. *Whispers* Is China gone yet?") and how nothing done in international relations actually make sense unless it is its own country, the impossibility of forming a single objective definition of country that includes Vatican City ("The least country like country that is") but excludes Hong Kong ("The most country like country that isn't") and even the oddity of non-countries having Olympic Teams.

The best answer he can come up with, and it's the best answer to what areas should be countries, is "What makes you a country is whether other countries consider you a country."
 
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JoeBentley said:
Okay we separate Catalonia from Spain.

But wait... Catalonia isn't some perfect hegemony. It has significant sub-cultures based on language, religion, ethnic backgrounds.

Well no problem. We'll just split them off into their own countries as well.
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Dealt with that point already: have a look a few screens back.
 
Belgian thought said:
Exactly - so where is the gripe?
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Not going to derail this thread into Scottish nationalism, but it's perfectly normal for countries whose populations are not "ethnically pure" to govern themselves and to have control over their own resources and policies. Indeed, since there's no such thing as an ethnically pure population anywhere, all independent countries are like that. The refusal to countenance the aspirations of countries which don't enjoy that status to acquire it, is what's peculiar.
 
Belgian thought said:
As a Belgian. I should know :)
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I'm Scots, and so is Architect, so we know who we are too, you'll understand. Belgium's justification for being an independent country isn't "we're ethnically pure!" So why impose that unattainable standard on another country?

I can just imagine it. "Yes, that's fine Freedonia, you've proved everyone in the country is ethnically pure Freedonian. Welcome to the club of independent states who are allowed to control their own resources and govern themselves."

"Oh noes, someone from Ruritania just went to live in Freedonia. Sorry about that Freedonia, you have to become a colony again."
 
Rolfe said:
I'm Scots, and so is Architect, so we know who we are too, you'll understand. Belgium's justification for being an independent country isn't "we're ethnically pure!" So why impose that unattainable standard on another country?

I can just imagine it. "Yes, that's fine Freedonia, you've proved everyone in the country is ethnically pure Freedonian. Welcome to the club of independent states who are allowed to control their own resources and govern themselves."

"Oh noes, someone from Ruritania just went to live in Freedonia. Sorry about that Freedonia, you have to become a colony again."
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The modern way (19th and 20th century) to define a new country is to have a handful of other countries that have been using the area as a resource for extraction and agricultural industries get together in a nice resort area somewhere and draw lines on a map which are convenient to them.

If those lines should happen to go through the middle of places that have been ethnically and culturally distinct for centuries or even millennia and lump them in with others they have no connection to ... oh, well.
 
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Belgian thought said:
You are right. But what is a Catalonian - do we have genetic evidence of such people?

A map of Barcelona shows Calle (Carrer in Catalan) de Murcia, d´Allacant etc... These are other Spanish towns and cities. Why?

I may be wrong, but with all the internal migration, breeding etc..(pre and post Franco), what is a pure Catalonian in the first place?
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It's worth restating that this is not a genetic thing. Even less would one argue against independence for Scotland, for example, on grounds that there are plenty of streets in Glasgow named after places in England, or that people in Scotland exhibit genetic diversity.

These would be the strangest unionist arguments ever advanced, and in fact I've never heard them, even from tub thumping English jingoists.
 
I heard the argument from David Colquhoun, of all people, the well-known anti-quackery pundit. Despite my once having given him a lift to the station in Edinburgh after he gave a lecture here, he blocked me on Twitter for trying to explain that the Scottish independence movement had nothing to do with ethnicity. He seemed to think that "the Scots are not a genetically distinct race" was all that was needed to prove the illegitimacy of the independence movement.

To be fair he unblocked me some time later. But the huge lack of understanding of what was going on was a bit of a shock to me. It's even dafter coming from someone from Belgium, of all places.
 
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