Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Rolfe]

Seen on Twitter.

I think you misunderstand my position on borders. No "more" borders. I keep mine. You don't get one. It's perfectly simple.

Having a border is how you get to decide what happens to you. Which is why a Scottish one is unthinkable obviously.

Borders are vile. Divisive.*
NB Standard Neil Oliver Great British Coasts exception applies. Impressive. Primeval. Natural. Unity.

Borders are divisive. Vile.*
*NB Offer not available in the Republic of Ireland.

I suspect he can keep it up all night.

Happy independence day. I'm having a barbecue. No, not YOU, Scotland.

 

[ceptimus]

Scotland puts in more than it gets out? LOL

 

[fuelair]

I'm always torn when it comes to regional independance. On the one hand, groups of people should have the right to determine their own fate... on the other hand, countries need to be able to maintain order and national integrity.

I don't know.

Especially if they are more successful than other parts of the country at drawing tourist dollars (or related success) so they have a better standard of living and the head guys want to spread the wealth even if they do nothing to create it.

 

[fuelair]

Especially if they are more successful than other parts of the country at drawing tourist dollars (or related success) so they have a better standard of living and the head guys want to spread the wealth even if they do nothing to create it.

Not to mention that a number of countries do not have anything like order and integrity though some regions might well..........

 

[Craig B]

Scotland puts more into the UK than it gets out.

I don't think that's the prevalent stereotype. More like

Scotland puts in more than it gets out? LOL

In fact we're supposed to be whining Benefit dependents, mired in drunken, substance-addicted sloth, battening like maggots on the long suffering generosity of the English taxpayers while repaying their unwarranted kindness with ungrateful insults. It's a wonder they put up with us at all.

 

[Planigale]

I don't think that's the prevalent stereotype. More like In fact we're supposed to be whining Benefit dependents, mired in drunken, substance-addicted sloth, battening like maggots on the long suffering generosity of the English taxpayers while repaying their unwarranted kindness with ungrateful insults. It's a wonder they put up with us at all.

There was the argument that Scotland was wealthy because of the oil income at the time of the referendum (the price of oil has since fallen) and that this wealth should be kept in Scotland. You do not deny such a case was made. I am uncomfortable with arguments based on selfishness.

Stereotyping any group of people is essentially a racist argument and should not be done even in jest. As has been said the Scots or the English or the Catalans are a diverse group of people some will be hard working, some angry, some Muslim, some anarchists.

 

[Craig B]

There was the argument that Scotland was wealthy because of the oil income at the time of the referendum (the price of oil has since fallen) and that this wealth should be kept in Scotland. You do not deny such a case was made. I am uncomfortable with arguments based on selfishness.

Stereotyping any group of people is essentially a racist argument and should not be done even in jest. As has been said the Scots or the English or the Catalans are a diverse group of people some will be hard working, some angry, some Muslim, some anarchists.

What a strange list of diversities you present us with! What is to prevent a single Scot, or member of any other nationality, from being at one and the same time a hard-working angry Muslim anarchist?

"Diverse" characteristics are more usually "either-or" in presentation. Diversity in eye colour means that some people have brown eyes, and others have blue ones, for example.

 

[Rolfe]

It's a paradox. Catalonia's wealth is recognised and acknowledged. Scotland's is not. In fact Scotland has been putting in more than it gets out at any time period of the union for which accounts are available. In the 1920s the discrepancy is so large as to be absolutely jaw-dropping. And yet these accounts are concealed and Scotland is characterised as a poor country dependant on England's generosity to survive. Subsidy junkies whining for their next fix of English tax-payers' cash.

This portrayal is so pervasive that a large number of people in Scotland believe it. Indeed, I know of people who have looked around at the poor infrastructure in parts of Scotland compared to the largesse lavished on the south-east of England and declared, "look at us, how could we possibly go it alone," without actually working it out. Some English people seem not to understand that taxes are collected in Scotland and claim to have paid for everything from the Queensferry crossing to our free prescriptions.

So, we take all your money, we give you some of it back and tell you that this is our generosity without which you couldn't survive. In what way is that not a dysfunctional relationship? Bearing in mind that we're also told that we're a partnership of equals in the greatest union there has ever been.

 

[Planigale]

It's a paradox. Catalonia's wealth is recognised and acknowledged. Scotland's is not. In fact Scotland has been putting in more than it gets out at any time period of the union for which accounts are available. In the 1920s the discrepancy is so large as to be absolutely jaw-dropping. And yet these accounts are concealed and Scotland is characterised as a poor country dependant on England's generosity to survive. Subsidy junkies whining for their next fix of English tax-payers' cash.

This portrayal is so pervasive that a large number of people in Scotland believe it. Indeed, I know of people who have looked around at the poor infrastructure in parts of Scotland compared to the largesse lavished on the south-east of England and declared, "look at us, how could we possibly go it alone," without actually working it out. Some English people seem not to understand that taxes are collected in Scotland and claim to have paid for everything from the Queensferry crossing to our free prescriptions.

So, we take all your money, we give you some of it back and tell you that this is our generosity without which you couldn't survive. In what way is that not a dysfunctional relationship? Bearing in mind that we're also told that we're a partnership of equals in the greatest union there has ever been.

I am trying to make a broad point about a case that has been made with regards to Brexit, Catalonia, Lombardy. This is probably not a good thread to get in to details about the economy of Scotland within the broader UK economy. If the distribution of tax within the UK is dysfunctional then that is an argument to fix it not to break it. I think it is wrong to shed poor regions to keep wealth in richer regions. If that is an argument for Nationalism I do not like it.

 

[3point14]

More like In fact we're supposed to be whining Benefit dependents, mired in drunken, substance-addicted sloth, battening like maggots on the long suffering generosity of the English taxpayers while repaying their unwarranted kindness with ungrateful insults. It's a wonder they put up with us at all.

According to whom?

 

[3point14]

Some English people seem not to understand that taxes are collected in Scotland and claim to have paid for everything from the Queensferry crossing to our free prescriptions.

Who is doing this? Can I see the article/source?

 

[Craig B]

According to whom?

It is a commonplace so well known to Scots that, for instance, newspaper readers need no explanation of the references in this article, or indeed this one.

 

[3point14]

It is a commonplace so well known to Scots that, for instance, newspaper readers need no explanation of the references in this article,

That's the scotching of the myth. I was hoping to see the actual claims, not the rebuttal.

or indeed this one.

Ah, like this one from 2012 from someone who seems to be a knob to anyone without a large independent income.

 

[Giz]

I am trying to make a broad point about a case that has been made with regards to Brexit, Catalonia, Lombardy. This is probably not a good thread to get in to details about the economy of Scotland within the broader UK economy. If the distribution of tax within the UK is dysfunctional then that is an argument to fix it not to break it. I think it is wrong to shed poor regions to keep wealth in richer regions. If that is an argument for Nationalism I do not like it.

Right. The economic argument for secession should be "is the new state going to be economically viable", not "can we split off Mayfair from the East End and then Mayfair will be rich! (And to hell with our erstwhile fellow citizens in the East End)".

The most important argument for secession (whether Scotland, brexit or wherever) should be a desire for political autonomy, not for gerrymandering the tax base.

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

I am trying to make a broad point about a case that has been made with regards to Brexit, Catalonia, Lombardy. This is probably not a good thread to get in to details about the economy of Scotland within the broader UK economy. If the distribution of tax within the UK is dysfunctional then that is an argument to fix it not to break it. I think it is wrong to shed poor regions to keep wealth in richer regions. If that is an argument for Nationalism I do not like it.

Richer regions should also bear in mind that if their wealth is largely founded on the price of a single commodity, they might find themselves up the proverbial creek without a paddle and running a 9% deficit if the commodity price drops by ~50%.

 

[Craig B]

Right. The economic argument for secession should be "is the new state going to be economically viable", not "can we split off Mayfair from the East End and then Mayfair will be rich! (And to hell with our erstwhile fellow citizens in the East End)".

The most important argument for secession (whether Scotland, brexit or wherever) should be a desire for political autonomy, not for gerrymandering the tax base.

That is true. Because it is true, the means proposed to achieve independence for Scotland consist of a referendum to determine the desire of the country's residents, not a budget and a finance Bill.

 

[Planigale]

That is true. Because it is true, the means proposed to achieve independence for Scotland consist of a referendum to determine the desire of the country's residents, not a budget and a finance Bill.

I think what you should have written was,
"the means proposed to achieve independence for Scotland consisted of a referendum; this determined the desire of the country's residents was to remain part of the UK."
Some people find it difficult to accept democratic decisions (that includes me if you get on to Brexit!)

 

[Craig B]

I think what you should have written was,
"the means proposed to achieve independence for Scotland consisted of a referendum; this determined the desire of the country's residents was to remain part of the UK."
Some people find it difficult to accept democratic decisions (that includes me if you get on to Brexit!)

You think there are no proposals now to achieve independence? You think that if there are, they consist of gerrymandering of budgets? There are such proposals, and in part they flow from the fact that prior to the last referendum we were told that only a No vote would keep Scotland in the EU. Then the jingoistic xenophobes proved that to be a false prospectus by voting to take the Union out of the EU. Every electoral division of Scotland voted against that idea, by a convincing margin.

In spite of that, nobody is suggesting any means of dissolving the Union except a democratically conducted referendum.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

I'm far too disgusted with current events to post much on this topic. However, there was a short bit on Euronews (now towing the Madrid line and putting up made-in-Madrid reports exclusively) the other day comparing the Catalan revolt to that of George Wallace in Alabama, nodding in approval of the federal put-down of a jerk.

Except, in that case, as in the US Civil War, autonomy/independence was sought by locals in order to be able to suppress democratic rights and dehumanize opponents, not to protect or enhance the exercise of democracy. That the irony of using an excuse that acts, in the final analysis, as an accusation is not lost on Madrid is full indication of the paucity of its democratic credentials.

 

[quadraginta]

What would have happened if Madrid had simply ignored the Catalonia vote? Just let the Catalans have their little referendum, and paid little attention to it?

A public statement saying it has no legal basis or authority, and left it at that.