Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

McHrozni said:
Does all of this apply if the opponents of independence in Catalonia outnumber the supporters? If yes, how is it democratic?

McHrozni
Click to expand...

Excellent question. The answer lies in allowing a democratic vote to take place so that this majority opinion is a known fact, not an assertion made by reading tea leaves. It's how democracy works. Both attempts at holding a democratic vote have been thwarted by hook and by crook. So far, that's a trouser drop by the Castilians, showing their shame for those with the stomach to look. Under such a scenario, it is likely an independence vote would not succeed. (In spite of the many reservations one might have about that, bearing in mind that in a few brief years, if not already, the same could be done in Tibet under a spanking brand new imported Han majority. Hmmm.) Nevertheless, I am of the same opinion as those supporting the vote here: if democratically done, one must respect the results. This is in spite of the fact that for 40 years, huge immigration came in to a vibrant local Catalan economy during the exact same time the language was entirely silenced, and the culture bound and gagged. Pretty sick. "Typical Spanish."

IIRC, in some other posts you state that the police must uphold the law. I wonder if that same sympathy would be afforded Islamic police enforcing sharia, under the auspices of a legal and democratic constitution (say, Iran). Or blasphemy laws in democratic Pakistan. Or if it would withstand the same critiques you or I might make of those judged, and hanged, at Nuremberg, for obeying legal orders beyond all moral reason.

Democracy pecking order:
The People > law, but any one person < law. Requires case-by-case answers, formulae fail.
 
Today dawned with two new political prisoners, civilian opinion leaders from entirely civil organizations who held no government positions. Nevertheless, accused of sedition. No bail, as there is a risk of their "destroying evidence."

Franco's Castile raises its cave troll visage anew. Sigh. The gag law prohibiting criticism of the crown was the first gross violation of democracy and rule of law. Apparently, it was the proverbial hole in the dike.
 
I was just reading the news on the BBC and thinking something similar. Political prisoners in the EU in 2017, what a shining light for Spanish democracy, eh?
 
Architect said:
I was just reading the news on the BBC and thinking something similar. Political prisoners in the EU in 2017, what a shining light for Spanish democracy, eh?
Click to expand...

Can the Spanish authorities use the European arrest warrant to demand the return of expatriate "spanish" dissidents?
 
I am skeptical about the wisdom of Catalonia splitting from Spain, and do not see the Catalan sepertarists as the saints that some here see them as, but the actions of the Spanish Government are getting more and more outrageous by the day.
They should have just let the vote happen,and then declare it had no legal standing and has no more ligtimacy then any opinion poll. Instead they went Franco on it. DUmb move.
 
I expect the regional autonomous government will be nullified today, and the frequent calls to "disinfect" it put into practice, for example, by repressing the language and culture once again in schools and public institutions. History could have gone the other way, and today we'd see Portugal struggling to free itself from the Spain that had conquered it. Would that movement see such little international support as that of the Catalans today? Probably. The real lesson of current events, from Brexit to Trump to to the Catalan drive for fully vested cultural rights (independence, btw, only became a goal once that was frontally denied), is that democracy is very poorly understood.

Brexit: "I cannot stand being a minority, albeit with all rights intact. I will only ever play as team captain. This is tyranny!":rolleyes:
Trump: "My opinion, in the end, is the only one that counts. I was elected by the proper race and religion, so I have absolute authority.":rolleyes:
Spain: "Spain owns Catalonia. Catalan is a degenerate language and culture, and must give way to Castilian superiority.":rolleyes:

Under democracy, the dictatorship of the majority can arise. Sometimes the complaints are false, racist claims, such as Brexit and Trump, fighting against invisible demons made of their twisted worldviews. Other times, legitimate grievances are in play, such as in East Timor, Tibet, Myanmar, and Catalonia, all cases in which a majority seeks or has sought to extinguish another via cultural or physical genocide.

Meh, who cares. Democracy has always been, in truth, a meal ticket, not a set of convictions that a majority in society actually subscribe to. Cash is king, which is why today most reports are about stock market reactions to events in this corner of the world, and why I've been asked via email by two separate US financial advisors about events here, but by no other overseas contacts. Sick. :gasp:
 
The danger of Madrid's strategy is that say that separatism doesn't have support; but everything they do ensures that its popular support will be maximised. Assuming valid elections are in fact held, I mean.
 
Sad days. Across the globe, hands are washed and democratic doublespeak -- from the mouths of monarchs, no less -- rules the day.
 
I note that our Spanish posters previously against Catallan independence so vocally have both gone gey quiet.
 
Does Catalonia have a right to be independent?

Only 43% of eligible voters chose to vote in the referendum.

I think its fair to say that before we can consider whether a territory deserves independence, at least 51% of their electorate have to vote in a referendum on independence.

I also think the territory must possess some sense of cultural, ethnic, linguistic uniqueness, seperate from the territory they are trying to leave.

And if they don't have that, there must be evidence of political repression or extreme political differences between the territory seeking freedom and the larger state.
 
//Devil's Advocate//

If Catalonia gains Independence and turns right around and as a new independent nation joins the EU, European Economic Area, Eurozone, and the Schengen ... what functionally would change?

And what are the odds of (if Catalonia gains Independence) that happening?

I mean even what little I know about it is is probably fair to call the European Union the most complicated political and legal organization of all time and that everything you say about has to be amended with a for all practical purposes bottomless well of exceptions and notations but in general at this point would leaving a EU member country even work? Would Catalonia stay a part of the EU by default or would it have to go through the process of joining (if it even wanted to.) How would EU citizenship work?
 
Last edited:
Hercules56 said:
Does Catalonia have a right to be independent?

Only 43% of eligible voters chose to vote in the referendum.

I think its fair to say that before we can consider whether a territory deserves independence, at least 51% of their electorate have to vote in a referendum on independence.

I also think the territory must possess some sense of cultural, ethnic, linguistic uniqueness, seperate from the territory they are trying to leave.

And if they don't have that, there must be evidence of political repression or extreme political differences between the territory seeking freedom and the larger state.
Click to expand...
Catalonia definitely meets the last two of these criteria. The outstanding issue is whether a majority of the people is in favour of independence, and that is what is mysterious about Madrid's reaction. If Spain wants to stop secession by demonstrating that most voters are unionist in sentiment, then harassing voters and arresting election organisers is the very last thing it should be doing.

All Madrid's actions seem destined to encourage separatist sentiment, and to provide plausible excuses for low turnout at the referendum. Now Madrid is not merely impeding independence, but reversing local autonomy. Does that not send a message to Catalans: the only way you can have self government is through complete independence? Is that the message Madrid really wants to convey?
 
Craig B said:
Catalonia definitely meets the last two of these criteria. The outstanding issue is whether a majority of the people is in favour of independence, and that is what is mysterious about Madrid's reaction. If Spain wants to stop secession by demonstrating that most voters are unionist in sentiment, then harassing voters and arresting election organisers is the very last thing it should be doing.

All Madrid's actions seem destined to encourage separatist sentiment, and to provide plausible excuses for low turnout at the referendum. Now Madrid is not merely impeding independence, but reversing local autonomy. Does that not send a message to Catalans: the only way you can have self government is through complete independence? Is that the message Madrid really wants to convey?
Click to expand...


Seems like it sends a message to all the "autonomous" communities.

The message is, "Your so-called 'autonomy' is utterly ephemeral. A complete fiction which doesn't even really exist on paper, since we can eliminate it with the stroke of a pen without any reference to your opinions."
 
Last edited:
JoeBentley said:
//Devil's Advocate//

If Catalonia gains Independence and turns right around and as a new independent nation joins the EU, European Economic Area, Eurozone, and the Schengen ... what functionally would change?

And what are the odds of (if Catalonia gains Independence) that happening?

I mean even what little I know about it is is probably fair to call the European Union the most complicated political and legal organization of all time and that everything you say about has to be amended with a for all practical purposes bottomless well of exceptions and notations but in general at this point would leaving a EU member country even work? Would Catalonia stay a part of the EU by default or would it have to go through the process of joining (if it even wanted to.) How would EU citizenship work?
Click to expand...
I suspect rSpain would veto any such membership.
 
Oh for Heaven's sake....it would be comical if it wasn't Western Europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41712725/spain-fm-many-police-violence-pictures-fake

“I think by now many of those pictures have been proven to be fake pictures,” he said. “If there was any use of force, it was a limited one and prompted by the fact that the law and order agencies were prevented from discharging the orders of the courts.


“I’m not saying that all [of them] are fake pictures but some of them are and there have been a lot of alternative facts and fake news here. As I said, if there was at all – and according to the pictures there was – some use of force, it was not a deliberate use of force. It was a provoked use of force.”
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Architect said:
Oh for Heaven's sake....it would be comical if it wasn't Western Europe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-41712725/spain-fm-many-police-violence-pictures-fake
Click to expand...


There were fake photos - sadly. This is what makes this situation such an emotional one.

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/05/hechos/1507220162_048235.html

Companies are also leaving - 1300 SMEs so far and 7% of IBEX 35 firms

https://elpais.com/economia/2017/10/20/actualidad/1508492104_302263.html

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/16/inenglish/1508139705_469301.html?rel=lom

https://elpais.com/economia/2017/10/09/actualidad/1507570625_950581.html

Agreed Rajoy dealt with this terribly, but hey Spain, from experience, takes ages to get out of their holiday mode. Something the date of the referendum capitalised on.

And in answer to the EU - yes they will lose membership and would have to re-apply and, as someone rightly said, Spain would veto it.

Interestingly, the demographics of the votes was different to the Brexit demography which was mainly the old and those with lower ETA (Education Termination Age).

In October, the curve is a U curve - The young on one end and the old and the other. Those between 30 - 55 being the lowest voters for independence.
 
Last edited:
Architect said:
I note that our Spanish posters previously against Catallan independence so vocally have both gone gey quiet.
Click to expand...

It's possible to be a skeptical about the wisdom of Catalan Independence and still consider the Spanish Govenment's actions to be incredibly heavy handed.
 
Craig B said:
Catalonia definitely meets the last two of these criteria. The outstanding issue is whether a majority of the people is in favour of independence, and that is what is mysterious about Madrid's reaction. If Spain wants to stop secession by demonstrating that most voters are unionist in sentiment, then harassing voters and arresting election organisers is the very last thing it should be doing.

All Madrid's actions seem destined to encourage separatist sentiment, and to provide plausible excuses for low turnout at the referendum. Now Madrid is not merely impeding independence, but reversing local autonomy. Does that not send a message to Catalans: the only way you can have self government is through complete independence? Is that the message Madrid really wants to convey?
Click to expand...

I fully agree.

Spain's actions to crush dissent may inspire many more Catalonians to support independence and then it may be too heavy a ship to turn around.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom