Spain suppressing Catalan Indyref

[Hlafordlaes]

Those in doubt should consider the significant level of FUD thrown around by Madrid, and, unlike, say, Scotland or Quebec, a Catalonia voting to separate would get zero cooperation in recovering the significant ensuing monies owed by Madrid, such as paid-in health and pension benefits, much less anything smacking of reason or fairness. This has significantly depressed what would be the independence vote under a democratic, fair-minded, and good-faith government. If Spain -- fat chance -- were to act in proper democratic good faith, the independence vote would become an overwhelming majority.

Yet in spite of all that, ha ha ha ha ha!!! Castilians are slowly getting outed globally for exactly what they are with respect to "the conquered." There's now dirty talk regarding the annual celebration of the 1714 defeat of Catalonia (by the Borbon monarchy's absolutist stormtroops), called "La Diada," to declare it as an act of sedition, including retroactively... precedents around the globe of other cultures celebrating famous defeats notwithstanding, not to mention longstanding local custom. Jackboots in October, now this. Losers.


ETA: BTW, I just finished translating a book, unfortunately under NDA. If I could, I'd post a factual litany of fascist idiocy taken as "culture" that would leave hairs standing on end.

 

[Craig4]

I think the UN should make a new law declaring how and under what conditions an independence movements needs to be recognized by a country.

Popularity of independence, public referendum without foreign influence and intervention, history of persecution, history of nationalist feeling, unique cultural attributes should all be considered.

I'm sorry but having interacted with the UN several times in Africa, that's a terrible idea in practice though a good one in theory. The UN will be paralyzed by their own democracy. I can't even begin to wrap my head around the idea that the UN could come up with a mandate (the UN does nothing without one) based on all those criteria. You'd have some of the smartest people in the world in a paralysis by analysis with those criteria.

 

[Craig B]

... The Spanish and the Catalans have cleverly taken their country off of my travel list. It appears that the only place in Europe that we might travel to is Greece, due to my sister in law's urging and her relatives there, or Ireland, which my wife insists I travel to before I get too much older.

Barcelona may not be very gravely distressed by your absence.

 

[Giz]

A Spanish supreme court judge has charged 13 senior Catalan leaders, including the region’s deposed president and the candidate chosen to succeed him, with rebellion over their roles in last year’s unilateral referendum and subsequent declaration of independence.

The charges, announced on Friday morning by Judge Pablo Llarena, carry a maximum sentence of 30 years’ imprisonment and were brought against both Carles Puigdemont, the former president in exile in Belgium, and Jordi Turul, who faces a vote on Saturday to take up the post.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ndidate-catalan-presidency-appear-court-spain

 

[dudalb]

A Spanish supreme court judge has charged 13 senior Catalan leaders, including the region’s deposed president and the candidate chosen to succeed him, with rebellion over their roles in last year’s unilateral referendum and subsequent declaration of independence.

The charges, announced on Friday morning by Judge Pablo Llarena, carry a maximum sentence of 30 years’ imprisonment and were brought against both Carles Puigdemont, the former president in exile in Belgium, and Jordi Turul, who faces a vote on Saturday to take up the post.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ndidate-catalan-presidency-appear-court-spain

SPain is slipping rapidly back to the good old days of Francisco Franco...

I repeiat, they should have just let them have the referendum, say it was not legally binding, then ignore the situation as much as possible. I am convinced a lot of voters who were not that enthusiastic about the Catalan Independence Party voted for the Parties in the pariliamenary elections as a protest.
Think Ireland 1916,where the ham fisted actions of the British Government drove many moderate Home Rulers into the arms of Sinn Finn...

 

[Giz]

Think Ireland 1916,where the ham fisted actions of the British Government drove many moderate Home Rulers into the arms of Sinn Finn...

Or, in the eloquent words of Princess Leia:
"The more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"

Hopefully Spain and Catalonia (whether in or out) can get through this without becoming a Basque-et case.

 

[ddt]

SPain is slipping rapidly back to the good old days of Francisco Franco...

I repeiat, they should have just let them have the referendum, say it was not legally binding, then ignore the situation as much as possible. I am convinced a lot of voters who were not that enthusiastic about the Catalan Independence Party voted for the Parties in the pariliamenary elections as a protest.
Think Ireland 1916,where the ham fisted actions of the British Government drove many moderate Home Rulers into the arms of Sinn Finn...

I agree with you.

Meanwhile, Puigdemont has been arrested in Germany. In Belgium, his extradition request is still pending in the courts. He went to Finland to give a lecture, Spain got wind of that and re-activated the European Arrest Warrant. He tried to evade capture by going back by car instead of by plane, and got arrested when crossing the Danish-German border.

 

[Giz]

I agree with you.

Meanwhile, Puigdemont has been arrested in Germany. In Belgium, his extradition request is still pending in the courts. He went to Finland to give a lecture, Spain got wind of that and re-activated the European Arrest Warrant. He tried to evade capture by going back by car instead of by plane, and got arrested when crossing the Danish-German border.

Ah, the EU in 2018. People peacefully advocating for self determination are being held as political prisoners.

 

[ddt]

Ah, the EU in 2018. People peacefully advocating for self determination are being held as political prisoners.

Not so pessimistic. The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is a great tool to quickly seize common criminals and bring them back to justice in the country they fled. The downside is that the EAW can be abused by an EU state for political prosecutions. AFAIK, Puigdemont is the first test case of that, and the response of other states' courts thus far shows they don't want to play along.

See the summary here at wiki: On 3 November, a Spanish judge issued the EAW against Puigdemont when he didn't appear in court. On 5 November, he surrendered voluntarily to the Belgian police, and was released on bail pending court proceedings. On 5 December, Spain withdrew the EAW because the Belgian court had problems with it:

Llarena said he had been moved to act after becoming aware of a discrepancy between Belgian and Spanish law that would limit the charges under which the Catalans could be extradited and therefore be charged on their return.
[...]
The only charge on which the Belgians would have agreed to extradition was believed to be the lesser one of misuse of public funds for which the accused would be fined and banned from holding public office but not imprisoned.

Spain has now reissued the EAW and the German authorities had no choice but to arrest him. According to Der Spiegel (German), thus far the presiding judge only had to judge whether (a) the EAW had been properly filled out, and (b) he was a flight risk, in order to detain Puigdemont, but not yet on the substance. Nevertheless, she wrote an ominous sentence in her verdict:

There is no question that the content of the European arrest warrant provides indications that the extradition of the person pursued could be judged inadmissible on the basis of a thorough examination, taking into account the legal issues involved.

 

[Giz]

Not so pessimistic. The European Arrest Warrant (EAW) is a great tool to quickly seize common criminals and bring them back to justice in the country they fled. The downside is that the EAW can be abused by an EU state for political prosecutions. AFAIK, Puigdemont is the first test case of that, and the response of other states' courts thus far shows they don't want to play along.

See the summary here at wiki: On 3 November, a Spanish judge issued the EAW against Puigdemont when he didn't appear in court. On 5 November, he surrendered voluntarily to the Belgian police, and was released on bail pending court proceedings. On 5 December, Spain withdrew the EAW because the Belgian court had problems with it:

Spain has now reissued the EAW and the German authorities had no choice but to arrest him. According to Der Spiegel (German), thus far the presiding judge only had to judge whether (a) the EAW had been properly filled out, and (b) he was a flight risk, in order to detain Puigdemont, but not yet on the substance. Nevertheless, she wrote an ominous sentence in her verdict:

My understanding of the EAW was that the offense only had to be illegal in the jurisdiction issuing the warrant. It did not need to be a offense where the warrant was served.

I suppose we shall see if he is sent back behind the Iberian Curtain.

 

[ddt]

My understanding of the EAW was that the offense only had to be illegal in the jurisdiction issuing the warrant. It did not need to be a offense where the warrant was served.

I suppose we shall see if he is sent back behind the Iberian Curtain.

I'm too lazy to go to the primary texts, but wiki tells me that double criminality as a requirement is removed for a wide range of crimes - but sedition or rebellion is not among them - and is discretionary to the judge for other crimes.

Another problem, as I gather. is that the crime of sedition in Spanish law requires violence or incitement to violence as an element. That's going to be hard to pin on Puigdemont.

 

[ddt]

While all eyes are on Puigdemont, there were a couple of more members of his government who have fled. Dutch newspaper NRC gives a small overview in this article.

Former Minister of Education Clara Ponsatí i Obiols has returned to her post as economics professor at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, a post she also held before 2017. She had initially fled with Puigdemont to Belgium and returned to Scotland last month. She's released on bail.

Former ministers Antonio Comín, Lluís Puig, and Meritxell Serret, who fled alongside Puigdemont to Belgium, are still there and have to report again to the Belgian authorities for the re-issued EAW.

Finally, last week former Catalan MP Marta Rovira fled to Switzerland. In November, she had stayed in Spain and was indicted, but chose to flee after the judge ordered jail pending the upcoming trial last week. According to the NRC article, the Swiss authorities have already signaled to Spain that they don't want to play along.

Another MP, Anna Gabriel from the hard-left pro-independence CUP, already fled to Switzerland last month when summoned to a court hearing, but apparently, no arrest warrant has been issued for her (yet).

 

[dudalb]

On the other hand, the less said about the obvious hatred that a person on this thread has toward Castillian Spainards in general the better. That is really beneath comtempt.