Kevin_Lowe
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- Feb 10, 2003
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I agree with most skeptics, that all subjectivity is dependent on the existence of a functioning "brain".
However, there are brains that function but do not bring forth consciousness. And there are brains that temporarily do not function at all, or at a level functionally indistinguishable from dead. So the question is valid: Can dead or nonfunctional brains be the object of moral considerations?
We're getting into a different question here to the one I answered, which was just about subjective and objective views.
I would say no to dead ones, barring resurrection. By the same token I'd say no to permanently nonfunctional ones.
An example to illustrate this subtle point: In most jurisdictions, the death penalty is outlawed, following the realisation of many people, that subjecting a fellow human to the agony and pain of dying is immoral.
In some jurisdiction, like some states of the USA, certain methods of putting a convict to death have been ruled unconstitutional on the moral ground of "cruelty". In those states, it is mandatory to first put the convict into an unconscious state, and then kill him, to spare them the pain and some of the agony of dying.
So, apparently, constituents and courts in those states think that it is immoral to kill some fellow humans while they are awake, but o.k. to kill them when unconscious.
I don't see that as counterintuitive. I think it's immoral to conduct surgery on a person who is not anaesthetised but moral to conduct surgery on a person who is anaesthetised. (Given the usual sorts of circumstances in which surgery is performed in the modern world). By the same token if you are going to kill someone then all else being equal it's better that it be non-traumatic as far as is possible.
I'm not endorsing the death penalty, I'm just saying that a non-traumatic death penalty is preferable to a traumatic one.
Thanks Kevin. Not only did you answer my questions eloquently, you also answered my questions.
So then, if "the subjective is a subset of the objective", do we conclude that the subjective can only exist if the objective exists first?
It certainly seems to work that way in this universe. We've never yet seen a subjective thingie outside a meaty brain thingie.
More importantly, do we conclude that the objective can exist without the subjective?
It certainly seems to work that way in this universe. By all appearances the universe was around for billions of years before life existed and hence before subjective thoughts and beliefs existed.
And what would those be?
Drkitten did an excellent job of explaining this. If you start with a non-scientific premise like "It is bad to cause suffering", or "It is bad to act in such a way that you cannot wish that all people in relevantly similar situations would act likewise" or whatever, then science can inform you about which of your actions are likely to cause or ameliorate suffering. Or it can inform you about the likely consequences of all people in relevantly similar situations acting likewise.
What science cannot do is bootstrap you to a moral conclusion from strictly factual premises. There needs to be a moral premise in there as well.