Sam Harris: Science can answer moral questions

I agree with most skeptics, that all subjectivity is dependent on the existence of a functioning "brain".

However, there are brains that function but do not bring forth consciousness. And there are brains that temporarily do not function at all, or at a level functionally indistinguishable from dead. So the question is valid: Can dead or nonfunctional brains be the object of moral considerations?

We're getting into a different question here to the one I answered, which was just about subjective and objective views.

I would say no to dead ones, barring resurrection. By the same token I'd say no to permanently nonfunctional ones.

An example to illustrate this subtle point: In most jurisdictions, the death penalty is outlawed, following the realisation of many people, that subjecting a fellow human to the agony and pain of dying is immoral.

In some jurisdiction, like some states of the USA, certain methods of putting a convict to death have been ruled unconstitutional on the moral ground of "cruelty". In those states, it is mandatory to first put the convict into an unconscious state, and then kill him, to spare them the pain and some of the agony of dying.
So, apparently, constituents and courts in those states think that it is immoral to kill some fellow humans while they are awake, but o.k. to kill them when unconscious.

I don't see that as counterintuitive. I think it's immoral to conduct surgery on a person who is not anaesthetised but moral to conduct surgery on a person who is anaesthetised. (Given the usual sorts of circumstances in which surgery is performed in the modern world). By the same token if you are going to kill someone then all else being equal it's better that it be non-traumatic as far as is possible.

I'm not endorsing the death penalty, I'm just saying that a non-traumatic death penalty is preferable to a traumatic one.

Thanks Kevin. Not only did you answer my questions eloquently, you also answered my questions.

So then, if "the subjective is a subset of the objective", do we conclude that the subjective can only exist if the objective exists first?

It certainly seems to work that way in this universe. We've never yet seen a subjective thingie outside a meaty brain thingie.

More importantly, do we conclude that the objective can exist without the subjective?

It certainly seems to work that way in this universe. By all appearances the universe was around for billions of years before life existed and hence before subjective thoughts and beliefs existed.

And what would those be?

Drkitten did an excellent job of explaining this. If you start with a non-scientific premise like "It is bad to cause suffering", or "It is bad to act in such a way that you cannot wish that all people in relevantly similar situations would act likewise" or whatever, then science can inform you about which of your actions are likely to cause or ameliorate suffering. Or it can inform you about the likely consequences of all people in relevantly similar situations acting likewise.

What science cannot do is bootstrap you to a moral conclusion from strictly factual premises. There needs to be a moral premise in there as well.
 
Sam Harris said:
Many of my critics piously cite Hume’s is/ought distinction as though it were well known to be the last word on the subject of morality until the end of time.
Well, it is unless someone comes up with a way to derive an "ought" from an "is", which nobody has so far.

... a reference to something Robert Oppenheimer once wrote, on the assumption that it was now an unmovable object around which all future human thought must flow. Happily, that’s not how physics works. But neither is it how philosophy works. Frankly, it’s not how anything that works, works.
I find this a very strange statement by Harris. If morality was something that is scientifically knowable, Oppenheimer's statement would be true. It would mean moral truth would be reduceable to the underlying physics.

The deeper issue, however, is that truth has nothing, in principle, to do with consensus: It is, after all, quite possible for everyone to be wrong, or for one lone person to be right.
Let's for a moment assume that there is such a thing as "scientific truth" where one lone person might be right and everybody else wrong (a view highly contested by most philosophers of science). This does not mean the same is true of "moral truth".

Strangely, Carroll also imagines that there is greater consensus about scientific truth than about moral truth. Taking humanity as a whole, I am quite certain that he is mistaken about this.
How about taking the consensus among relavent experts? I think you'll find that most experts of morality don't take the position that "moral truth" is a meaningful concept. Most people might disagree, but sometimes the few are right and the many are wrong.

In fact, I believe that we can know, through reason alone, that consciousness is the only intelligible domain of value. What’s the alternative?
The obvious alternative is of course that there is no "intelligible domain of value". But Harris decides to argue against a point of view that is not even the issue:

Imagine some genius comes forward and says, “I have found a source of value/morality that has absolutely nothing to do with the (actual or potential) experience of conscious beings.” Take a moment to think about what this claim actually means. Here’s the problem: whatever this person has found cannot, by definition, be of interest to anyone (in this life or in any other). Put this thing in a box, and what you have in that box is—again, by definition—the least interesting thing in the universe.
Notice how similar this is to how scientific truths are discovered; those are often things that very few people are interested in, or are even able to understand. If he wants to argue that there are scientific moral truths, he should not be afraid of truths that few people care about or understand. That's because as Harris put it himself: "It is, after all, quite possible for everyone to be wrong, or for one lone person to be right."

The same criticism of "not being of interest to anyone" can used against the idea that consciousness is the domain of value. Suppose science discovered that plants had a conscious mind just like us. How many would be interested in that truth and suddenly decide it is immoral to eat them? Not many, I reckon.

And, as I pointed out at TED, all the people who claim to have alternative sources of morality (like the Word of God) are, in every case that I am aware of, only concerned about wellbeing anyway:
All the people? Or is Harris just twisting the beliefs of many of them?

They just happen to believe that the universe functions in such a way as to place the really important changes in conscious experience after death (i.e. in heaven or hell).
In other words, forever outside the scope of science. Which makes it very difficult for science to show how the morality based on such ideas is wrong.

Fanciers of Hume’s is/ought distinction never seem to realize what the stakes are,
Or perhaps they do, and they realise that the stakes are higher than Harris realises. There have been many ideologies based on the view that what "ought" can be derived from what "is", and that science can be used to decide moral issues. And from Nazism to communism they all managed to produce a perversion of both science and morality, and human suffering. It usually leads to "science proves that I am right and you are wrong, so do as I tell you."
Both science and morality demand a level of humility, which is lost if you want to back up your morality with science, or want science to decide what is moral.

Look into their eyes, and tell me that what has been done to them is the product of an alternative moral code every bit as authentic and philosophically justifiable as your own.
This is the sort of argument that always pops up against claims that morality is not "scientific" or "absolute" or whatever: the preposterous argument that if one cannot justify one's morality on "something higher" one refuses to make a moral judgement. It is not true no matter whether that "something higher" is God or science. Moral relativism is not itself a moral judgement.

Harris' statement is an appeal to emotion to boot.

Think of the champions of “tolerance” who reflexively blamed Salman Rushdie for his fatwa, or Ayaan Hirsi Ali for her ongoing security concerns, or the Danish cartoonists for their “controversy,” and you will understand what happens when educated liberals think there is no universal foundation for human values.
It appears Harris has already decided which moralities are best, without doing the science on which he wants to base them. What if science discovers that human wellbeing is maximised by not allowing people to angre others? Will he then change his mind on these issues?
 
Drkitten did an excellent job of explaining this. If you start with a non-scientific premise like "It is bad to cause suffering", or "It is bad to act in such a way that you cannot wish that all people in relevantly similar situations would act likewise" or whatever, then science can inform you about which of your actions are likely to cause or ameliorate suffering. Or it can inform you about the likely consequences of all people in relevantly similar situations acting likewise.

What science cannot do is bootstrap you to a moral conclusion from strictly factual premises. There needs to be a moral premise in there as well.

I don't believe there does need to be any purely arbitrary moral premise. (Again, keeping in mind the comments circa 6:00.)

The notions, for instance, that human beings as a species prefer on the whole to be happy, healthy, fed, safe, and loved are not unscientific.

I don't see any problem with taking a scientific view of questions such as what is good, what is best, what should we do?

You can imagine looking at another species and asking, from a scientific point of view, what would be the best way for these creatures to act in a given situation, knowing what we know about what makes them thrive, and how their brains are wired, so that they get the most preferable outcome?

We can do that for ourselves as well.

This is not to say that science is at all prepared and equipped to actually perform such a task in all cases.

But I don't think that's what's being argued. Rather, he's only observing that science can answer moral questions. That it's not a contradiction in terms to say that moral issues can be tackled, and solved, scientifically.
 
It would mean moral truth would be reduceable to the underlying physics.

And perhaps it is.

In fact, if it is not, then what does it ultimately come down to?

If we are indeed just a physical phenomenon -- as are stars, black holes, squid, and volcanic ash -- then everything we do, including making the types of moral judgments that people tend to make, is simply a result of the elaboration of the physics.

There is no reason to believe that this particular type of behavior (making moral judgments) by these particular objects (people) is not entirely determined by the physics and couldn't, if we had enough knowledge, be understood entirely in that framework.
 
Good breakdown. Yeah, it seems Harris is just coming in with a preconceived morality and trying to shoehorn science to fit it. If science "showed" that overall well-being would be best increased by everyone in the world converting to Islam and every female wearing a burka, would he accept that and convert? Should he, any more than a Muslim should convert to science? Science is falsifiable by objective experiment, morality by subjective opinion.

I hope this science-morality beast never gets solid traction.
 
And perhaps it is.

In fact, if it is not, then what does it ultimately come down to?

If we are indeed just a physical phenomenon -- as are stars, black holes, squid, and volcanic ash -- then everything we do, including making the types of moral judgments that people tend to make, is simply a result of the elaboration of the physics.

There is no reason to believe that this particular type of behavior (making moral judgments) by these particular objects (people) is not entirely determined by the physics and couldn't, if we had enough knowledge, be understood entirely in that framework.

Sure but not seemingly in any way that wouldn't require a mapping of entire brain function, and the only output we'd get is that different brains have different moralities (which is already very obvious). What to do then? Genetically engineer brains to hold to the current majority morality, or that of those with the power to engineer them? Abort everyone found to have an inferior morality? What's the point? What's the goal?
 
I don't believe there does need to be any purely arbitrary moral premise. (Again, keeping in mind the comments circa 6:00.)

As Earthborn and I have already said, if you've found a way around the is/ought problem you'll be the first person in history to do so.

The notions, for instance, that human beings as a species prefer on the whole to be happy, healthy, fed, safe, and loved are not unscientific.

Now you're helping yourself to the unstated moral premise that satisfying human preferences is morally good. That's not a scientific premise, it's a moral one pulled out of thin air.

As moral premises to pull out of thin air it's not a bad one though. It's flawed but there are much worse ones you could have gone for.

You can imagine looking at another species and asking, from a scientific point of view, what would be the best way for these creatures to act in a given situation, knowing what we know about what makes them thrive, and how their brains are wired, so that they get the most preferable outcome?

Same trick again. You are hiding the moral premise that satisfying the preferences of such creatures is morally good, and then claiming that your whole position is based on purely factual premises.

But I don't think that's what's being argued. Rather, he's only observing that science can answer moral questions. That it's not a contradiction in terms to say that moral issues can be tackled, and solved, scientifically.

That can only happen if the people involved have already agreed on at least one non-scientific, moral premise.

Without that moral premise to start off with you can pile facts as high as you like without ever getting to a moral conclusion.
 
If we are indeed just a physical phenomenon -- as are stars, black holes, squid, and volcanic ash -- then everything we do, including making the types of moral judgments that people tend to make, is simply a result of the elaboration of the physics.
No doubt the mechanisms we use to make moral judgements are reducible to the underlying physics. We may even figure out what causes most people to have the same sort of moral judgements on many issues. But showing how people make them and what judgements they make is not the same thing as finding "moral truths". More likely science would discover why people tend to make moral judgements that are detrimental to wellbeing and should therefore according to Harris be considered moral untruths. He says so very clearly:
Everyone also has an intuitive “morality,” but much intuitive morality is wrong (with respect to the goal of maximizing personal and collective wellbeing) and only genuine moral experts would have a deep understanding of the causes and conditions of human and animal wellbeing.
What he's basically saying is that we need "genuine moral experts" to decide for us what is right and what is wrong. If only he could convince the "genuine moral experts" to agree with him instead of promoting moral relativism.
 
Early on in his presentation, Sam Harris, says:

"Values = Facts about the wellbeing of conscious beings"

This is a prescriptive statement about what values should be and not a descriptive definition. Here's another prescriptive one:

Values = Facts about the nature of God

In fact Sam Harris' argument seems to break down to this:

Values (should be based on) Facts about the wellbeing of conscious beings

So Sam Harris' moral premise is Utilitarianism, or as he calls it, 'wellbeing/human flourishing'.

As other have pointed out, how has this has managed to sidestep the 'is / ought' problem? Where morality is concerned the difficulties humans have are establishing the 'facts' of a situation, and then determining what we ought to do, given those facts. Of course, science can help us determine what the facts are in a given situation, but we cannot look to science to tell us what we ought to do (values), without also assuming a moral premise. We cannot 'arrive' at a Utilitarian premise, simply by knowing the facts. We must decide that 'the greatest benefit for the greatest number' is what we value.

So when Sam Harris talks about the people who believe that science will never answer the most important questions, if the questions are based on ethical values, then those people are right.
 
Thanks Kevin. Not only did you answer my questions eloquently, you also answered my questions.

So then, if "the subjective is a subset of the objective", do we conclude that the subjective can only exist if the objective exists first?


It certainly seems to work that way in this universe. We've never yet seen a subjective thingie outside a meaty brain thingie.

More importantly, do we conclude that the objective can exist without the subjective?

It certainly seems to work that way in this universe. By all appearances the universe was around for billions of years before life existed and hence before subjective thoughts and beliefs existed.


So then if science is the objective, and morality the subjective, do we conclude that science is not only to blame for the existence of morality, but given that science is the progenitor of morality, it very well is the only thing in existence that can affect it?
 
So then if science is the objective, and morality the subjective, do we conclude that science is not only to blame for the existence of morality, but given that science is the progenitor of morality, it very well is the only thing in existence that can affect it?

Scientific knowledge is an approximation of objective reality, but science is not "the objective".

Morality is subjective, but since there are other subjective things it cannot be said to be "the subjective", as opposed to merely "subjective".

As has been discussed already in this thread, science alone cannot answer any questions about morality. No amount of objective knowledge ("is statements") can get you to an "ought statement".
 
As has been discussed already in this thread, science alone cannot answer any questions about morality. No amount of objective knowledge ("is statements") can get you to an "ought statement".
Big deal. Science starts with "ought" statements: We "ought" to value evidence. We "ought" to prefer hypotheses which explain the most observations with the fewest assumptions. We "ought" to value theories with proven predictive power. We "ought" to strive to understand the rules by which the universe operates.

And why?

I believe it's the same fundamental "ought" which Harris proposes: to benefit sentience, and especially human sentience. Why is it important to understand that food crops grow best in a temperature range which returns at roughly the same time and lasts roughly the same portion of every year? To improve our ability to reliably feed ourselves. Why is it important to understand that eating that plant nourishes, while eating this plant kills? The knowledge benefits those who choose which plants to eat. Why should we try to understand the world around us, rather than simply attempting to appease imaginary gods which direct its seemingly capricious unfolding?

Because it's good for us.

The is-ought problem is irrelevant to what I believe Harris is proposing. Get me Hume on the phone, and ask him to tell me why we ought to know what is. The ought-is problem supercedes his. We start with "ought", and all of our actions (and especially the pursuit of science) proceed from that.
 
Scientific knowledge is an approximation of objective reality, but science is not "the objective".

Yes, I agree scientific knowledge is an approximation...

Morality is subjective, but since there are other subjective things it cannot be said to be "the subjective", as opposed to merely "subjective".

Never said Morality was "the subjective." I was referring to the abstract, hypothetical "the subjective" you mentioned. See highlight.

Subjective and objective are not really opposites. The subjective is a subset of the objective, since the brains we use to have subjective thoughts with are part of the objective universe and are made out of objectively observable atoms.

Moving right along. So is it the universe that is "the objective"?


As has been discussed already in this thread, science alone cannot answer any questions about morality. No amount of objective knowledge ("is statements") can get you to an "ought statement".

I be this discusser you speak of...

post #39 by cienanos
Science/Scientific Method is but one tool.

I'll cut to the chase as I suspect my attempt at the Socratic Method has been sniffed out. The question I posed was about the cyclical nature of life and death. And how two things can be true at once, which you I think also touched on: I am sitting down, still. Yet the planet is spinning, so I'm not really still. Your mushrooms example. Etc.

So, if two things can be true at once, and we know that our experience/essence/energy on this planet is in constant flux, why can't we apply this knowledge, using science as one tool, to help alleviate human suffering?

Harris makes this point quite clearly. The "how" is where he fails of course, but that shouldn't be a deterrent for the rest of us, it should be a challenge embraced. We're all just one cycling glop on a rock near some heat and light.
 
I'll cut to the chase as I suspect my attempt at the Socratic Method has been sniffed out. The question I posed was about the cyclical nature of life and death. And how two things can be true at once, which you I think also touched on: I am sitting down, still. Yet the planet is spinning, so I'm not really still. Your mushrooms example. Etc.

So, if two things can be true at once, and we know that our experience/essence/energy on this planet is in constant flux, why can't we apply this knowledge, using science as one tool, to help alleviate human suffering?

Harris makes this point quite clearly. The "how" is where he fails of course, but that shouldn't be a deterrent for the rest of us, it should be a challenge embraced. We're all just one cycling glop on a rock near some heat and light.

In his rebuttal to the arguments it seems he's going well beyond the how (my bold):

Nor was I merely saying that science can help us get what we want out of life. Both of these would have been quite banal claims to make (unless one happens to doubt the truth of evolution or the mind’s dependency on the brain). Rather I was suggesting that science can, in principle, help us understand what we should do and should want—and, perforce, what other people should do and want in order to live the best lives possible. My claim is that there are right and wrong answers to moral questions, just as there are right and wrong answers to questions of physics, and such answers may one day fall within reach of the maturing sciences of mind.

He's not just saying for a particular morality science can help people find ways to maximize it. He's saying there IS a particular morality, and it IS the promotion of well-being. He wants science to be used to show that this well-being axiom isn't subjective, but an objective truth, as "truthful" as a scientific truth. He's attemting to prove that his belief in a single moral truth should be true for all people, only he's using science rather than the Bible.

At least that's my impression, the video presentation was pretty confusing, and the linked rebuttal was quite long.

ETA: I haven't been able to follow you and Kevin's discussion as well as I should so if this has nothing to do with what your points were you can disregard it as such
 
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In his rebuttal to the arguments it seems he's going well beyond the how (my bold):



He's not just saying for a particular morality science can help people find ways to maximize it. He's saying there IS a particular morality, and it IS the promotion of well-being. He wants science to be used to show that this well-being axiom isn't subjective, but an objective truth, as "truthful" as a scientific truth. He's attemting to prove that his belief in a single moral truth should be true for all people, only he's using science rather than the Bible.

At least that's my impression, the video presentation was pretty confusing, and the linked rebuttal was quite long.

ETA: I haven't been able to follow you and Kevin's discussion as well as I should so if this has nothing to do with what your points were you can disregard it as such

Hey Dragoonster,

Thanks for posting. I hadn't read the rebuttal (half-way thru it now), you are correct. The TED video painted him in a soft wash. The fact that it was less than 20 minutes didn't help. But now there's discussion, so at least that's subjectively good. ;)

So, here it is. You can thank me later for deciphering the enigmatic sudoku that is the Da Harris Code.

The guy is a schizophrenic logistics magician of morality with a porn-level addiction to science. For example, he would find the following to be creamy:

caveman1: ugh. (one day, we will fly like birds.)
caveman2: ugh. (that's mad crazy, yo!)
caveman1: ugh. (also, with a magic potion, grow animals to feed more.)
caveman2: ugh. (okay you can stop now. people are looking at you funny.)

You get the gist. Ironically, his argument falls apart when the variable of time is applied. (Yes there are many others, but time is all that's needed.)

With time comes new science. New science creates new ideas surrounding morality. The nukeler bomb comes to mind. The question of whether it's moral to evaporate 1 million in order to save 1 million & 1 lives in the Land of Gray.

In other words, cherries hide from him, having seen him on To Catch A Picker.

Still, I think his heart is in the right place. He just needs to use/understand different language and adjust his ego.

from sam harris' rebuttal:
It is also worth noticing that Carroll has set the epistemological bar higher for morality than he has for any other branch of science. He asks, “Who decides what is a successful life?” Well, who decides what is coherent argument? Who decides what constitutes empirical evidence? Who decides when our memories can be trusted? The answer is, “we do.” And if you are not satisfied with this answer, you have just wiped out all of science, mathematics, history, journalism, and every other human effort to make sense of reality.

The above quote in and of itself explains my thesis on the enigmatic sudoku that is the Da Harris Code.
 
What flaws are there in the utilitarianism argument which this is basically a revamped version of?
 
The notions, for instance, that human beings as a species prefer on the whole to be happy, healthy, fed, safe, and loved are not unscientific.

But just because "human beings as a species prefer" something does not make it "good." For example, human beings as a species prefer not being shot, but desertion in the face of the enemy is still immoral,.... to the point that armies will punish it with death.

The idea that "it is sweet and seemly to die for one's country" (yes, I do know it in the original Latin, why do you ask) is a statement that a particular behavior is moral despite being exactly what human beings as a species do not prefer.

The moral code you outline above -- whatever people like is good, or more tersely, pleasure is good -- is one moral theory. It has the name "hedonism." There are lots of other moral theories that are not hedonism, such as deontology.

Feel free to prove "scientifically" that hedonism is "correct."

You won't be able to.
 
What flaws are there in the utilitarianism argument which this is basically a revamped version of?

The primary flaw is that it gives the wrong answer sometimes.

For example, committing gang rape gives you and your mates more pleasure than it deprives the woman of. If you can figure out a way to reduce your risk of being caught to an acceptable level -- perhaps by murdering her afterwards -- then utilitarianism would say "go for it."
 
UCE should be happy. NOMA keeps getting re-discovered; whether it's "Science or god", or "Science or not-Science" makes no difference to the problem.
 

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