Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[Gravy]

We haven't finished the experiment yet.

That's the whole point Killtown. You have disparaged people without having done any kind of experiment to determine if there was any validity to your claim, and you ignored all that evidence that supports Val McClatchey's story.

Will you now apologize to her? No excuses about needing to finish work that should have been done long ago.

Will you apologize now? Yes or no?

 

[Killtown]

Gravy,

We haven't finished the experiment yet.

We are on the subject of the plume color now. Feel free to contribute your thoughts.

Thanks for participating.

 

[Gravy]

Gravy,

We haven't finished the experiment yet.

We are on the subject of the plume color now. Feel free to contribute your thoughts.

Thanks for participating.

That's the whole point Killtown. You have disparaged people without having done any kind of experiment to determine if there was any validity to your claim, and you ignored all that evidence that supports Val McClatchey's story.

Will you now apologize to her? No excuses about needing to finish work that should have been done long ago.

Will you apologize now? Yes or no?

 

[Mercutio]

If you don't like this experiment, feel free NOT to participate.

Science is an endeavor practiced by a community. Critical analysis is a crucial part; if people who did not like experiments simply ignored them, science could not progress. Take a look at Huntsman's sig--the first part.

If I do not like your experiment, it is incumbent on me to speak up, and to give you a chance to correct your errors or, in defending your idea, to point out my errors. Anything less is negligence, if one chooses to participate in the scientific process.

I could feel free not to participate. But that would leave a bad "experiment" unchecked. Not something I am keen on, sorry.

 

[Dog Town]

Gravy,

We haven't finished the experiment yet.

We are on the subject of the plume color now. Feel free to contribute your thoughts.

Thanks for participating.

How dare you!, It is bad enough for you that the best teacher I have seen, chose to leave you. You now take your liberties to Gravy. Grow up lad, you have alot left to do! Please stop giving humor to one, with none! Save his own pathetic excuse for it!

 

[Gravy]

A reminder: you call McClatchey's photo the "smokingest smoking gun" as proof that 9/11 was an inside job.

A "smoking gun" is conclusive proof.

You have not only not provided conclusive proof, you've shown that you have no idea why your methods are wrong, despite all the help you've received here.

Will you apologize now, yes or no?

 

[Skibum]

What exactly is this experiment he keeps ranting about?

IMO, his "experiment" is to push the envelope and stir the pot, just enough to get himself banned in a "controversial" manner.

That, and to see how long he can keep a pointless thread going.

If this were a true experiment, we would have to gather up several thousand gallons of jet fuel and light it in order to make our own fireballs for comparison.

That sounds like lots of fun, I'm in.

 

[Dog Town]

That, and to see how long he can keep a pointless thread going.

My point has always been that , a psychopath like this one will have a point. Not the one expected , however! Heed my words!

 

[Killtown]

Science is an endeavor practiced by a community. Critical analysis is a crucial part; if people who did not like experiments simply ignored them, science could not progress. Take a look at Huntsman's sig--the first part.

If I do not like your experiment, it is incumbent on me to speak up, and to give you a chance to correct your errors or, in defending your idea, to point out my errors. Anything less is negligence, if one chooses to participate in the scientific process.

I could feel free not to participate. But that would leave a bad "experiment" unchecked. Not something I am keen on, sorry.

We are on the subject of the plume color now. Feel free to contribute your thoughts.

Thanks for participating.

 

[Stellafane]

What exactly is this experiment he keeps ranting about?

IMO, his "experiment" is to push the envelope and stir the pot, just enough to get himself banned in a "controversial" manner.

That, and to see how long he can keep a pointless thread going.

If this were a true experiment, we would have to gather up several thousand gallons of jet fuel and light it in order to make our own fireballs for comparison.

That sounds like lots of fun, I'm in.

That'll be a first; banned due to tedium. But if anyone is up to it, Killtime's the one.

 

[Dog Town]

We are on the subject of the plume color now. Feel free to contribute your thoughts.

Hate all caps, but here I go! STOP THIS #$%@ LET THE SPIRIT GO. IT IS OUT TO GIVE YOU ALL CARPAL T. IT WIL NOT BE LIKE A SNICKERS.*SNICKER* YES, NOTHING MORE. RM TOOK A BREAK! NUFF SAID!

 

[Mercutio]

I guess we'll move on to the plume color. If anybody highly objects to the estimates so far, we can go back and address them.

First, I've been told the fireball 93 made was different because of the speed it crashed. Will this make a difference in the plume color from the onset?

I made two sample explosion pics to try to compare how 93's fireball would have reacted:

This first pic is from the B-52 crashing at a slow speed where I'm told the fireball "spills" out.

The 2nd pic is from a MOAB. Even though this explosion is from a bomb blast, is this explosion more characteristic of how 93's might have been?

Notice that the MOAB blast DOES leave a plume color similar to Val's plume.

So...these pics are, of course, useless.

Why?

Ok...

The colour of a plume in a photo will depend on a number of things. Among these are...the spectrum of light illuminating the plume (this will depend on time of day and atmospheric conditions), the angle of light (dependent on size of plume, distance from plume, time of day), reflective properties of plume (dependent on composition of plume, density, angle of light), absorbtion spectrum of air between camera and plume (dependent on distance and haze, itself dependent on air impurities), and spectral sensitivity of camera (varies by chip and megapixels). Others may have slipped my mind.

It is obvious that the backgrounds of your pics are different; this means that one or more (very likely more) of these variables are different. Your pics are not a match for Val's pic. Unless you have that information, pics you have chosen that "look right" to you may be utterly inappropriate. Indeed, pics that "look right", but are taken under different conditions, may actually be evidence against their plumes being similar.

Are the above variables among those you "double checked"?

 

[Dog Town]

Oops, how do I delete?

 

[Gravy]

Killtown, if you want people to participate in your experiment, you need to tell them why your methods are valid.

You have repeatedly dismissed the scientific method.

So, what is YOUR method? Please list here how you believe you can go about conclusively proving or disproving that Val McClatchey's photo does not show the aftermath of flight 93's crash.

You don't have to go into detail. A simple outline is all that's needed.

 

[Killtown]

The colour of a plume in a photo will depend on a number of things. Among these are...the spectrum of light illuminating the plume (this will depend on time of day and atmospheric conditions), the angle of light (dependent on size of plume, distance from plume, time of day), reflective properties of plume (dependent on composition of plume, density, angle of light), absorbtion spectrum of air between camera and plume (dependent on distance and haze, itself dependent on air impurities), and spectral sensitivity of camera (varies by chip and megapixels). Others may have slipped my mind.

It is obvious that the backgrounds of your pics are different; this means that one or more (very likely more) of these variables are different. Your pics are not a match for Val's pic. Unless you have that information, pics you have chosen that "look right" to you may be utterly inappropriate. Indeed, pics that "look right", but are taken under different conditions, may actually be evidence against their plumes being similar.

Are the above variables among those you "double checked"?

See these pics...

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7508/1605/1600/plume-comparison3.1.jpg

Why is the plume color in the left pic so different from the plume in the right pic?

(you may have to c-n-p link in your browser.)

 

[Killtown]

Killtown, if you want people to participate in your experiment, you need to tell them why your methods are valid.

All the estimates are YOUR guy's estimates that YOU guy's came up with. I'm just being a moderator.

 

[Wyn]

All the estimates are YOUR guy's estimates that YOU guy's came up with. I'm just being a moderator.

How much Jet B is in a MOAB?

 

[Hellbound]

Why is the plume color in the left pic so different from the plume in the right pic?

And the reason you can't already answer this is why we laugh at you. And also more evidence that you are scum, who believes in accusing without evidence, damn the consequences.

In any case, to answer your question:

Composition.

 

[Belz...]

We haven't finished the experiment yet.

Irrelevant. The point is, you don't know if the photo is fake, therefore you have no conclusive proof, therefore what you said about Val was a lie. Please retract and apologise. Maybe THEN we can proceed.

EDIT: My ignore list: Arkan_Wolfshade, Belz, defaultdotxbe, Dog Town, Huntsman, kookbreaker, Pardalis, rwguinn, Skibum, Stellafane, Sword_Of_Truth, Yoink

Killclown's got me on ignore. Can someone slap him upside the head with my response above ?

 

[Mercutio]

See these pics...

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7508/1605/1600/plume-comparison3.1.jpg

Why is the plume color in the left pic so different from the plume in the right pic?

(you may have to c-n-p link in your browser.)

In order to answer, I need to know...

Where is the sun in each pic? (no shadows to tell me)

How far away is the camera? (in left, impossible to tell, as bottom is obscured by trees which may be near to or quite far from plume)

What time of day for each? (mostly for spectral reasons, but also for angle)

What atmospheric conditions? (dry desert air absorbs different spectral frequencies than humid air)

What is the composition of each plume? (for spectral absorbtion)

What is the density of each plume? (for spectral absorbtion)

What is the make of camera for each pic? (spectral sensitivity of chip)

Some of these can be adjusted for; if we know the camera makes, we can adjust. If we know the illuminating spectrum, we can adjust. Angle could be a bit more difficult, as it interacts with composition of plume and density.

Unless you know each of these variables, you have unaccounted-for variability that could invalidate any "it looks similar" sort of analyses.