Plume in Flight 93 photo is different

[Killtown]

In order to answer, I need to know...

Where is the sun in each pic? (no shadows to tell me)

How far away is the camera? (in left, impossible to tell, as bottom is obscured by trees which may be near to or quite far from plume)

What time of day for each? (mostly for spectral reasons, but also for angle)

What atmospheric conditions? (dry desert air absorbs different spectral frequencies than humid air)

What is the composition of each plume? (for spectral absorbtion)

What is the density of each plume? (for spectral absorbtion)

What is the make of camera for each pic? (spectral sensitivity of chip)

Some of these can be adjusted for; if we know the camera makes, we can adjust. If we know the illuminating spectrum, we can adjust. Angle could be a bit more difficult, as it interacts with composition of plume and density.

Unless you know each of these variables, you have unaccounted-for variability that could invalidate any "it looks similar" sort of analyses.

How about find me a photo of a plane crash plume that looks like Val's.

Also find me an explosion similar that 93 made.

 

[Belz...]

The colour of a plume in a photo will depend on a number of things. Among these are...the spectrum of light illuminating the plume (this will depend on time of day and atmospheric conditions), the angle of light (dependent on size of plume, distance from plume, time of day), reflective properties of plume (dependent on composition of plume, density, angle of light), absorbtion spectrum of air between camera and plume (dependent on distance and haze, itself dependent on air impurities), and spectral sensitivity of camera (varies by chip and megapixels). Others may have slipped my mind.

Don't forget the amount of time after the explosion at which the pic was taken.

 

[Belz...]

All the estimates are YOUR guy's estimates that YOU guy's came up with. I'm just being a moderator.

Ooooohhh. So that's it. He wants to be a mod here too. How cute.

 

[Hellbound]

How about find me a photo of a plane crash plume that looks like Val's.

Also find me an explosion similar that 93 made.

You know, you've already been shown pictures with clouds from dark black to almost white. That shoudl be a pretty clear clue that just about any color between those extremes is possible.

Of course, expecting you to get a clue is like expecting Seabiscuit to make a comeback and win the Trifecta.

 

[Belz...]

How about find me a photo of a plane crash plume that looks like Val's.

Also find me an explosion similar that 93 made.

Could someone bump this image back to him. This should show that the fireball from the crash could have gotten pretty big.

 

[Mercutio]

How about find me a photo of a plane crash plume that looks like Val's.

Also find me an explosion similar that 93 made.

You do not understand, do you? Until you get me that information about Val's picture, I cannot find an equivalent. After you get me that info, maybe I could, but thankfully plane crashes are relatively rare, and it may prove quite literally impossible.

"[A] photo of a plane crash plume that looks like Val's" is not good enough. Not nearly. If this is the standard of evidence for your blog, then you have no business claiming you have evidence of anything.

 

[Killtown]

You do not understand, do you? Until you get me that information about Val's picture, I cannot find an equivalent. After you get me that info, maybe I could, but thankfully plane crashes are relatively rare, and it may prove quite literally impossible.

"[A] photo of a plane crash plume that looks like Val's" is not good enough. Not nearly. If this is the standard of evidence for your blog, then you have no business claiming you have evidence of anything.

Just show me ANY photo of a plane crash plume that looks like an ordnance blast. Don't tell me Val's was the ONLY one.

 

[Wyn]

Just show me ANY photo of a plane crash plume that looks like an ordnance blast. Don't tell me Val's was the ONLY one.

How much Jet B is in a MOAB?

 

[Mercutio]

Just show me ANY photo of a plane crash plume that looks like an ordnance blast. Don't tell me Val's was the ONLY one.

"looks like"... back to a subjective, gut-feeling "analysis". These numbers you claim to have checked twice...do they exist at all?

 

[Killtown]

"looks like"... back to a subjective, gut-feeling "analysis". These numbers you claim to have checked twice...do they exist at all?

Can you find me a photo of a plane crash plume that "looks like" the color of Val's plume?

Why don't you guys just concede defeat at this point because I really doubt you'll be able to explain how a plane crash plume got to be the same color as an ordnance blast within 1 min of its formation.

 

[Dog Town]

Why don't you guys just concede defeat at this point because I really doubt you'll be able to explain how a plane crash plume got to be the same color as an ordnance blast within 1 min of its formation.

I wish there was a better verbage than LOL! I'll take it!

 

[LashL]

For Killtown since s/he apparently has Belz on ignore:

Irrelevant. The point is, you don't know if the photo is fake, therefore you have no conclusive proof, therefore what you said about Val was a lie. Please retract and apologise. Maybe THEN we can proceed.

EDIT: My ignore list: Arkan_Wolfshade, Belz, defaultdotxbe, Dog Town, Huntsman, kookbreaker, Pardalis, rwguinn, Skibum, Stellafane, Sword_Of_Truth, Yoink

Killclown's got me on ignore. Can someone slap him upside the head with my response above ?

 

[Yoink]

Why don't you guys just concede defeat at this point because I really doubt you'll be able to explain how a plane crash plume got to be the same color as an ordnance blast within 1 min of its formation.

So finally after all this furious mental frottage, Killtown achieves release! Clearly he thinks that the color of the smoke is his "smoking gun" (perhaps he took that phrase a little too literally?). I don't know where one would look for a stash of photographs of plane-crash-smoke-plumes. I know that no one is likely to have taken a photograph of anything like a 757 crashing in anything like the way that Flight 93 did. I even know that if you COULD find a photograph with smoke EXACTLY like the McClatchley one that would in fact be no evidence at ALL for the authenticity of the photo. But if it could shut this little twerp up I would love for someone who DOES know where to find something like such a photo to post one. Of course, what does "same color" mean when it comes to a smoke cloud? Unless it is the exact same smoke cloud Killtown will be able to say "no, that's a different color!"

One line of argument I offer up to anyone who wants to make it: if he says all plane crashes must produce the same color smoke, does he care to account for the fact that no two of the various photographs and videos he has instances are the same? Ask him which ones are the "fake" ones and which single one is the "real" one.

 

[LashL]

Why don't you guys just concede defeat at this point because I really doubt you'll be able to explain how a plane crash plume got to be the same color as an ordnance blast within 1 min of its formation.

Now, THAT is seriously funny!

Why don't you just admit, killtown, that you have no evidence whatsoever to back up the vile things said on your blog; that you have done no scientific calculations at all, and that you do not understand even how to begin?

It is not sufficient to say that your gut tells you that the plume is "too big" or that the plume "looks like" an ordnance blast, and it is not sufficient to pick numbers out of the air, etc.

You have claimed to done calculations and to have checked them. You have been asked repeatedly to SHOW YOUR WORK and you have failed and refused to do so.

Isn't it time to apologize to Ms. McClatchey?

 

[LashL]

So finally after all this furious mental frottage, Killtown achieves release! Clearly he thinks that the color of the smoke is his "smoking gun" (perhaps he took that phrase a little too literally?). I don't know where one would look for a stash of photographs of plane-crash-smoke-plumes. I know that no one is likely to have taken a photograph of anything like a 757 crashing in anything like the way that Flight 93 did. I even know that if you COULD find a photograph with smoke EXACTLY like the McClatchley one that would in fact be no evidence at ALL for the authenticity of the photo. But if it could shut this little twerp up I would love for someone who DOES know where to find something like such a photo to post one. Of course, what does "same color" mean when it comes to a smoke cloud? Unless it is the exact same smoke cloud Killtown will be able to say "no, that's a different color!"

One line of argument I offer up to anyone who wants to make it: if he says all plane crashes must produce the same color smoke, does he care to account for the fact that no two of the various photographs and videos he has instances are the same? Ask him which ones are the "fake" ones and which single one is the "real" one.

Many pages ago on this thread, he/she was already provided with numerous shots of other plane crash smoke plumes which are different colors and was asked which of them were fakes and which was the "real" one. Not surprisingly, he/she had no response to that.

 

[Killtown]

A friendly reminder...


My ignore list: Arkan_Wolfshade, Belz, defaultdotxbe, Dog Town, Huntsman, kookbreaker, LashL, Pardalis, rwguinn, Skibum, Stellafane, Sword_Of_Truth, Yoink

 

[Mercutio]

Why don't you guys just concede defeat at this point because I really doubt you'll be able to explain how a plane crash plume got to be the same color as an ordnance blast within 1 min of its formation.

Until you demonstrate that the other variables are similar, your pic is worthless. In fact, the difference in background colors implies that these other variables are quite different, which would mean that if the plumes looked identical, they would in reality be quite different in composition.

Your pics prove you wrong, unless you can demonstrate that the relevant variables are similar, when they appear on the face of it to be quite different. These are not "the same color" in any meaningful sense at all.

 

[Killtown]

Until you demonstrate that the other variables are similar, your pic is worthless. In fact, the difference in background colors implies that these other variables are quite different, which would mean that if the plumes looked identical, they would in reality be quite different in composition.

Your pics prove you wrong, unless you can demonstrate that the relevant variables are similar, when they appear on the face of it to be quite different. These are not "the same color" in any meaningful sense at all.

So why didn't the variables in my pic of the 3 plumes make things different? Val's plume is nearly the same color as the middle ordnance plume which has a very contrasting background. the sky in the right pic of the jet crash is about the same as Val's pic, but the plume colors are substantially different.

NOTICE I brought up the different fireballs 93 could have made to PERHAPS explain why 93 made a seemingly ordnance plume color. Maybe we should address the fireball reaction first.

 

[LashL]

A friendly reminder...


My ignore list: Arkan_Wolfshade, Belz, defaultdotxbe, Dog Town, Huntsman, kookbreaker, LashL, Pardalis, rwguinn, Skibum, Stellafane, Sword_Of_Truth, Yoink

Oh, it looks like I got added to the list since posting your post for you, Belz

Soon, he/she will be talking to him/herself - and then can claim victory when he can no longer read any responses pointing out the errors in his alleged calculations, etc.

 

[Sword_Of_Truth]

A friendly reminder...


My ignore list: Arkan_Wolfshade, Belz, defaultdotxbe, Dog Town, Huntsman, kookbreaker, LashL, Pardalis, rwguinn, Skibum, Stellafane, Sword_Of_Truth, Yoink

GAWDDAMMIT!

Why am I second to last on that list?

I deserve more recognition than that.